Venting Do you believe in the promortalist views on suicide?

[FuneralCry]

I certainly do, my view is that it's objectively better to die under all circumstances, I will always see it as preferable to cease existing as soon as possible. I see death as the solution to the problem that is existence, I see no value to having the ability to exist, it just causes harm.

Existence is nothing more than a torturous and futile process of slowly decaying from age, all that existence does is create problems there was never a need for. Only to die is ideal as it frees one from the ultimate source of all suffering, one cannot suffer from not existing yet as long as one exists there is no limit as to how much one can suffer.

I don't believe existence was something worth having in the first place, the existence of life was just a terrible mistake and I view death as a positive thing for that reason, for me death means freedom, it's freedom from the burden that is existing as a conscious being who was so harmfully forced to exist. I don't see anything desirable about suffering in any form, it's all worthless and best avoided.

Because of my views I believe there should always be the option of an instant peaceful exit from this existence so that one can prevent all future suffering and harm. Only wanting to die feels rational to me, I only see it as rational to wish for death which is why it's so criminal how suicide is purposely made so inaccessible.

 

[notwavinbutdrowning]

Powerful words. May I ask what keeps you going? (Hoping I can learn from some of your wisdom)

 

[FuneralCry]

Powerful words. May I ask what keeps you going? (Hoping I can learn from some of your wisdom)

I'm still stuck in this existence because of the difficulty and inaccessibility of suicide, sadly suicide isn't as straightforward as just easily peacefully falling into an eternal sleep. Trying to die also involves risks which could very easily just lead to much more suffering.

 

[TheSource]

my view is that it's objectively better to die under all circumstances

Do you mean that as a personal choice, or are you asserting that it's better if everyone dies?

 

[Forever Sleep]

For me? Yes. For everyone else? No- that's up to them to decide. I'm pro-choice, not pro-death. No one's answer is wrong. No one should insist they know the right answer and insist everyone else is wrong (in my opinion.) That goes just as much for promortalists as it does for pro-lifers. (In my opinion.)

 

[martinso67]

I'm still stuck in this existence because of the difficulty and inaccessibility of suicide, sadly suicide isn't as straightforward as just easily peacefully falling into an eternal sleep. Trying to die also involves risks which could very easily just lead to much more suffering.

This reminds me of Efil Blaise. But he did find a way to get his method to ctb. He's dead but his ideas will live on longer.

Also having no access to serious method to ctb is also discrimination of people with different believes.
Like the goverment does not stop for example Jews from practicing their beliefs. If it was like that it would be disciminating. People with a worldview that views leaving one's own existing as something good should be allowed to practice their believe without harming anyone.

 

[vitbar]

It's weird to think about but some of the suffering I have experienced I would not do without. Grieving the death of my partner was right and deeply meaningful to me. I would not choose to have never met her, or choose to not experience the grief.

I am curious about promortalism. Most proponents I have read simultaneously declare there to be no meaning while clearly finding a lot of meaning in life, death, and suffering. It's full of value judgements. This isn't a contradiction so long as it's not claimed to be more than a personal stance ofc.

 

[SpiritualDeath]

It's weird to think about but some of the suffering I have experienced I would not do without. Grieving the death of my partner was right and deeply meaningful to me. I would not choose to have never met her, or choose to not experience the grief.

I am curious about promortalism. Most proponents I have read simultaneously declare there to be no meaning while clearly finding a lot of meaning in life, death, and suffering. It's full of value judgements. This isn't a contradiction so long as it's not claimed to be more than a personal stance ofc.

Promortalism is just an idea that to avoid suffering, a death sooner is always better than later. It isn't necessarily pro-suicide, nor does it say anything MUST or MUST NOT be done.

At the end of the day the choice is yours. You can choose to struggle and survive if you want. You can choose to accept and endure the suffering in your life if you want. The point of emphasizing on suffering isn't that suffering is meaningful (It's not. Nothing is inherently meaningful in this universe, and let's say 100 years after you die no one would be there to care about what suffering you went through in your life anymore), but that suffering is *unwanted*. Sure, you can choose to endure some suffering in your life, but the problem is that there are always more severe kinds of suffering that you'll find totally unacceptable, hard to prevent, endure or escape from, and there's absolutely no guarantee that these kinds of disastrous suffering won't befall you in the future. If you believe that suffering should be accepted and can be chosen, it's only logical that you have lost the right to complain no matter what happens to you. If you see suffering as unwanted and unacceptable, then there's no point in perpetuating any of this anymore. This way at least you can't be anti-suicide anymore, given that it's very possible (if not certain) that death means returning to non-existence, free from all suffering and nothing more. Moreover all suffering is for no good reasons and could have been avoided in the first place. It's unnecessary. It's just here to torture you, make you miserable, for nothing, and then you die inevitably. That's why it's always better to be in/as non-existence compared to existence.

Another thing is that you can choose to suffer for yourself, it's your choice, but anything that imposes suffering on others or gets others to stay here and suffer with you is seen as unacceptable.

Edit: This is also the point that I try to make as an antinatalist. I don't necessarily hate and troll those people deciding to have kids. I respect you decision. Your body your choice. It's just totally absurd to claim that it's out of love, or to act surprised if your kids end up ctbing in the future.

 

[vitbar]

Promortalism is just an idea that to avoid suffering, a death sooner is always better than later. It isn't necessarily pro-suicide, nor does it say anything MUST or MUST NOT be done.

At the end of the day the choice is yours. You can choose to struggle and survive if you want. You can choose to accept and endure the suffering in your life if you want. The point of emphasizing on suffering isn't that suffering is meaningful (It's not. Nothing is inherently meaningful in this universe, and let's say 100 years after you die no one would be there to care about what suffering you went through in your life anymore), but that suffering is *unwanted*. Sure, you can choose to endure some suffering in your life, but the problem is that there are always more severe kinds of suffering that you'll find totally unacceptable, hard to prevent, endure or escape from, and there's absolutely no guarantee that these kinds of disastrous suffering won't befall you in the future. If you believe that suffering should be accepted and can be chosen, it's only logical that you have lost the right to complain no matter what happens to you. If you see suffering as unwanted and unacceptable, then there's no point in perpetuating any of this anymore. This way at least you can't be anti-suicide anymore, given that it's very possible (if not certain) that death means returning to non-existence, free from all suffering and nothing more. Moreover all suffering is for no good reasons and could have been avoided in the first place. It's unnecessary. It's just here to torture you, make you miserable, for nothing, and then you die inevitably. That's why it's always better to be in/as non-existence compared to existence.

Another thing is that you can choose to suffer for yourself, it's your choice, but anything that imposes suffering on others or gets others to stay here and suffer with you is seen as unacceptable.

Edit: This is also the point that I try to make as an antinatalist. I don't necessarily hate and troll those people deciding to have kids. I respect you decision. Your body your choice. It's just totally absurd to claim that it's out of love, or to act surprised if your kids end up ctbing in the future.

I am pro-choice on the topic of suicide.

Usually I don't like using multiple quotes like this because it can lead to unproductive conversations, but it's the cleanest way I can think to ask about this sentence.

If you believe that suffering should be accepted and can be chosen, it's only logical that you have lost the right to complain no matter what happens to you.

What is the logic here? imo you can accept extra suffering and still have the right to complain. You can choose to do something difficult and exclaim it is difficult while doing it.

It just strikes me as a very idealistic movement for people who accept that everything ultimately dies and that all meaning is transient and individual. There is this insistence on the meaning they find over the meaning others find. On what would be best for everyone (even all life from some).

You give an example of this thinking yourself when you say it is absurd for a parent to claim they had children out of love. Even if you accept the notion that life isn't worth living surely the parent would have to believe this too for it to be absurd? People can do messed up things for love. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. And the odds are against your child ctbing no?

The idea that suffering outweighs all positives is also something I find questionable. How are we objectively assigning weights here? An individual can certainly make this statement about their own existence, but to apply this more broadly? I can get on board with the idea that less suffering is desirable, but not that no suffering is always better than some.

 

[SpiritualDeath]

What is the logic here? imo you can accept extra suffering and still have the right to complain. You can choose to do something difficult and exclaim it is difficult while doing it.

My point is that if you choose to believe suffering is acceptable, it's only reasonable that you'll have to accept whatever that happens to you, no matter how cruel or horrible it is. By "complain" I mean you can't say that some certain suffering (of your choice) is acceptable or even good to justify imposing suffering on others (so that you can fulfill your selfish desires), while not accepting other certain kinds of suffering that befall you. Whether you "exclaim it's difficult" or not is irrelevant. It's only about if you're willing to put up with whatever difficulty that befalls you. If you're willing to put up with that, it's fine, as long as you're not saying that others should do the same, or use whatever tactics to force others to do the same.

On what would be best for everyone (even all life from some).

I'm not saying this at all. I'm only explaining the logic behind promortalism (i.e. why some people would think it's actually better to cease to exist). In fact if you look back at one of my posts here, I was criticizing that version of efilism (which claims that humans are morally obligated to wipe out all life), saying that it is imperfect, not ideal, not failsafe, may create other problems and somewhat optimistically delusional. In fact if the majority of people accept life and suffering as it is, it's fine, they should have it. The only thing that bothers me is, why do people like me have to be brought here and put up with all of this without our consent? And why isn't everyone given the right to peacefully and safely leave this existence, as a result whoever that wants to leave has to resort to somewhat painful, unsafe methods and risk failing their attempts, suffering more and being treated like shit in this society?

parent would have to believe this too

I'm not saying this. I'm not saying that anyone "would have to believe" anything. That's why I said if you choose to have kids, that's fine. I'm not gonna hold a knife in front of your neck and say that if you have kids I'll kill you. However in reality people are playing with these kinds of words, to justify bringing children into existence while knowing that the children will certainly suffer to some extent (e.g. they can just easily claim that it's out of "love", so that the children would have to put up with obvious suffering that they didn't ask for, doing what the parents want, and they expect their children to be grateful for it, which is totally absurd).

The idea that suffering outweighs all positives is also something I find questionable. How are we objectively assigning weights here?

Oh, and this one - life is a game of "suffer or you'll suffer more". Needs and desires are the trouble that your existence created in the first place, and now you have to strive (suffer) to get them fulfilled as much as possible, in order not to suffer more, and it's ultimately for nothing and will become of nothing after you die. Consider this: you're working in order to pay for the things that you need to survive. You're paying in order to keep paying. You're working in order to keep working.

This is a matter of fact. Personally assigned values (on what's "good" or what's "bad") are actually irrelevant here. You can choose to believe in whatever you want and play out your life however you like. You can choose to believe that all of this is good and valuable. It's just that it keeps your suffering going, and there's no guarantee that the suffering will not become tremendous and totally unendurable in the future. That's all.