Discussion Discussing men’s struggles

[19andOverdue]

Quite a bold title I know. But bear with me, I just recently deleted a thread where I shared my subjective experience with being a depressed man in a society where biological traits of masculinity are seen as toxic, and misunderstood with the evil and pathology of patriarchal societies. I had to delete it because discussion got too heated, and I felt I could better explain myself without implying that women are at fault. I feel when discussing this topic, I have to tread very carefully, as I could be easily be wrong/offend or be ignorant to women's struggles. I appreciate the counter arguments, and I really hope my fatalist view of modern society's view towards masculinity isn't true.

I'll finish with this, I know I might sound like I'm ignorant to the pain men have caused throughout history. But I'd like to dissect that thinking, and apply it to modern men, and women's fear of toxic masculinity. Maybe there's a middle ground? Maybe you'll just call me an i.n.c.e.l, all valid criticism is welcome.

I have a great video linked that dives deeper into this. And I hope I do it's arguments justice, for modern society's sake

 

[DetachedDreamer97]

I know I'm late to the thread, but I'm sorry you had to delete your thread. Everything you've said as well as this video I'm currently watching is true. And at this rate, it's gonna get worse.

"You don't have to tear men down to include women."

 

[wait.what]

I think we're failing boys and young men by not educating them about the full spectrum of what a man can be. Over recent decades, we've done a good job showing girls a lot of positive female role models. Biographies of women written for preschoolers or grade school children is a whole cottage industry. Most of these are fairly well done, and give an age-appropriate version of the lives of women who were successful or admirable in some way. For early grades children, that looks something like, "Rosa Parks did a brave thing by not giving up her seat on the bus. She did it even though she knew she would be arrested and go to jail, because the law was unfair. She wanted the unfair law changed, so everyone would be treated equally on the bus. She ended up helping many people that day." I realize my writing style is shit for beginning readers; the point is the passage explains what Rosa Parks did and why she was admirable. Children learn that a woman can be brave, can pursue justice, and can provide important service to the community. There are literally hundreds of these biographies out there, and all kids are going to be exposed to at least a few during the course of their childhood.

We don't have an equivalent library of biographies about admirable men written for the same age group or with the same purpose. What we say to small boys is, "What do you want to be when you grow up? A fireman? A police officer? A train engineer?" Those aren't positive examples of manhood, those are just jobs. (Also, nobody's a train engineer, and I don't know why people like dressing toddler boys in old-timey engineer outfits.)

Nobody explicitly says that there is only one acceptable kind of man, but nobody has to. The gender of boys is ruthlessly policed, by men as well as women, and especially by other children. I've seen fights break out between little boys over whether one of them accidentally touched a pink crayon and now has "girl germs." The adult world is not much better. For some reason, Twitter has become a gender-policing weapon of choice. There's a whole sub-genre of tweet dedicated to telling other people how they should live out their manhood or womanhood. But it's usually manhood. (Non-binary people get harassed too, but it usually has more to do with if their gender is real and if they're "really trans" or not. Twitter is the absolute worst.)

As far as I can tell, Twitter's idea of the ideal man is someone who is a caricature of eternal strength. He can like cars and sports and looking at women's butts, and that's about it. Well, put beer and boobs on the list too. He's forbidden to enjoy any kind of sensory pleasure other than beer and sex. No brightly-colored thing. No soft thing (boobs and butts are exempt from the ban). He can't like fancy food. He can't be interested in art. He can't take long showers. He can't nap during the day. Twitter frowns on male dancing. The list is endless, and it's so stupid. Tragically stupid, because some men and boys face serious consequences for stepping outside the narrow bounds of what's permitted for them. Children may be harshly criticized and punished by their parents. Adult guys have been beaten up in parking lots. Being killed is not outside the realm of possibility.

I'm not saying that men can't be classic tough guys if that is their authentic self. We need classic tough guys. We just don't need ONLY classic tough guys.

There's a poster I really like by Karen Hallion, an artist on Etsy. It depicts several men and a word illustrating their contributions to society. Maybe you like these particular guys or not, but they are a diverse bunch, and I think our boys and young men need to see that. Obviously a poster isn't going to solve everything, but I think it was done in the right spirit, and it's a start.

 

[CowsAreCool]

Quite a bold title I know. But bear with me, I just recently deleted a thread where I shared my subjective experience with being a depressed man in a society where biological traits of masculinity are seen as toxic, and misunderstood with the evil and pathology of patriarchal societies. I had to delete it because discussion got too heated, and I felt I could better explain myself without implying that women are at fault. I feel when discussing this topic, I have to tread very carefully, as I could be easily be wrong/offend or be ignorant to women's struggles. I appreciate the counter arguments, and I really hope my fatalist view of modern society's view towards masculinity isn't true.

I'll finish with this, I know I might sound like I'm ignorant to the pain men have caused throughout history. But I'd like to dissect that thinking, and apply it to modern men, and women's fear of toxic masculinity. Maybe there's a middle ground? Maybe you'll just call me an i.n.c.e.l, all valid criticism is welcome.

I have a great video linked that dives deeper into this. And I hope I do it's arguments justice, for modern society's sake

Masculinity and femininity are like yin and Yang. Both are necessary for a society to function, but too much or too little of one can lead to an imbalance. "Toxic masculinity" and effeminization of men are both issues at play.

There's a crisis among men in this country. Suicide rates are considerably higher. Men have dropped out of college at a rate 7 times that of women starting in 2020. Men have higher rates of substance abuse and alcoholism.

Men in this country feel there's no hope, so they turn to drugs, alcohol, video games. They're unemployed. And a lot of women look down on them for it.

Plus, with changing social attitudes, even the notion of finding a wife and forming a committed relationship. Having kids, owning a house, having a stable job… it all seems increasingly hopeless.

 

[Luchs]

I think we're failing boys and young men by not educating them about the full spectrum of what a man can be. Over recent decades, we've done a good job showing girls a lot of positive female role models. Biographies of women written for preschoolers or grade school children is a whole cottage industry. Most of these are fairly well done, and give an age-appropriate version of the lives of women who were successful or admirable in some way. For early grades children, that looks something like, "Rosa Parks did a brave thing by not giving up her seat on the bus. She did it even though she knew she would be arrested and go to jail, because the law was unfair. She wanted the unfair law changed, so everyone would be treated equally on the bus. She ended up helping many people that day." I realize my writing style is shit for beginning readers; the point is the passage explains what Rosa Parks did and why she was admirable. Children learn that a woman can be brave, can pursue justice, and can provide important service to the community. There are literally hundreds of these biographies out there, and all kids are going to be exposed to at least a few during the course of their childhood.

We don't have an equivalent library of biographies about admirable men written for the same age group or with the same purpose. What we say to small boys is, "What do you want to be when you grow up? A fireman? A police officer? A train engineer?" Those aren't positive examples of manhood, those are just jobs. (Also, nobody's a train engineer, and I don't know why people like dressing toddler boys in old-timey engineer outfits.)

Nobody explicitly says that there is only one acceptable kind of man, but nobody has to. The gender of boys is ruthlessly policed, by men as well as women, and especially by other children. I've seen fights break out between little boys over whether one of them accidentally touched a pink crayon and now has "girl germs." The adult world is not much better. For some reason, Twitter has become a gender-policing weapon of choice. There's a whole sub-genre of tweet dedicated to telling other people how they should live out their manhood or womanhood. But it's usually manhood. (Non-binary people get harassed too, but it usually has more to do with if their gender is real and if they're "really trans" or not. Twitter is the absolute worst.)

As far as I can tell, Twitter's idea of the ideal man is someone who is a caricature of eternal strength. He can like cars and sports and looking at women's butts, and that's about it. Well, put beer and boobs on the list too. He's forbidden to enjoy any kind of sensory pleasure other than beer and sex. No brightly-colored thing. No soft thing (boobs and butts are exempt from the ban). He can't like fancy food. He can't be interested in art. He can't take long showers. He can't nap during the day. Twitter frowns on male dancing. The list is endless, and it's so stupid. Tragically stupid, because some men and boys face serious consequences for stepping outside the narrow bounds of what's permitted for them. Children may be harshly criticized and punished by their parents. Adult guys have been beaten up in parking lots. Being killed is not outside the realm of possibility.

I'm not saying that men can't be classic tough guys if that is their authentic self. We need classic tough guys. We just don't need ONLY classic tough guys.

There's a poster I really like by Karen Hallion, an artist on Etsy. It depicts several men and a word illustrating their contributions to society. Maybe you like these particular guys or not, but they are a diverse bunch, and I think our boys and young men need to see that. Obviously a poster isn't going to solve everything, but I think it was done in the right spirit, and it's a start.

View attachment 101752

I fully agree with the lack of role models part. When I was in middle school the girls would have seminars or be taken to conventions multiple times a year where they were informed about and got to try out all kinds of different professions. Us guys never got anything like that. Pretty much the only role models I had were knights or ancient greek heroes, but those are seen as dumb and childish, so I gave them up after a while.

 

[DetachedDreamer97]

I fully agree with the lack of role models part. When I was in middle school the girls would have seminars or be taken to conventions multiple times a year where they were informed about and got to try out all kinds of different professions. Us guys never got anything like that. Pretty much the only role models I had were knights or ancient greek heroes, but those are seen as dumb and childish, so I gave them up after a while.

Not to mention, the fact that we've essentially been raised by women (either single mothers, teachers, and now the female dominated workforce). Considering how we have to hold back our nature to avoid being viewed as toxic masculinity, and thus emasculated, yeah...

 

[LonelyEmerald]

Quite a bold title I know. But bear with me, I just recently deleted a thread where I shared my subjective experience with being a depressed man in a society where biological traits of masculinity are seen as toxic, and misunderstood with the evil and pathology of patriarchal societies. I had to delete it because discussion got too heated, and I felt I could better explain myself without implying that women are at fault. I feel when discussing this topic, I have to tread very carefully, as I could be easily be wrong/offend or be ignorant to women's struggles. I appreciate the counter arguments, and I really hope my fatalist view of modern society's view towards masculinity isn't true.

I'll finish with this, I know I might sound like I'm ignorant to the pain men have caused throughout history. But I'd like to dissect that thinking, and apply it to modern men, and women's fear of toxic masculinity. Maybe there's a middle ground? Maybe you'll just call me an i.n.c.e.l, all valid criticism is welcome.

I have a great video linked that dives deeper into this. And I hope I do it's arguments justice, for modern society's sake

From what I've seen people are fine so long as toxic masculinity so long as it's in women. I hate talking about gender and politics though because it always gets people heated, but I will talk about it some. I do think 2nd, 3rd, and 4th wave feminism as well as "anti-racism"(aka racism) have really ripped apart the fabric of our society. The elites benefit the most off of a roughly 50/50 split, and it really is a 50/50 split. Some men support feminism, but some women don't. Politics and government no longer achieve anything because it's become a tug of war of social ideology rather than economic. Actually a genius move by elites like John D. Rockefeller to split society up like this. I think I would be fine if I wasn't autistic. The lack of support for autistic people combined with the lack of support for men just ends up with me seemingly forever alone. I feel like without autism as a man I would be fine in today's world.

 

[LonelyEmerald]

Not to mention, the fact that we've essentially been raised by women (either single mothers, teachers, and now the female dominated workforce). Considering how we have to hold back our nature to avoid being viewed as toxic masculinity, and thus emasculated, yeah...

Depends on the workforce. However, it does seem many workforces are increasingly female dominated. Even with male dominated career fields, integration usually makes this not really a thing. As an autistic person, I wish there were still true male dominated career fields. It is easier for me to interact with just men rather than solely women or a mixture. Especially with the amount of toxic women just allowed to run amok in workplaces.

I fully agree with the lack of role models part. When I was in middle school the girls would have seminars or be taken to conventions multiple times a year where they were informed about and got to try out all kinds of different professions. Us guys never got anything like that. Pretty much the only role models I had were knights or ancient greek heroes, but those are seen as dumb and childish, so I gave them up after a while.

I fully agree.

Masculinity and femininity are like yin and Yang. Both are necessary for a society to function, but too much or too little of one can lead to an imbalance. "Toxic masculinity" and effeminization of men are both issues at play.

There's a crisis among men in this country. Suicide rates are considerably higher. Men have dropped out of college at a rate 7 times that of women starting in 2020. Men have higher rates of substance abuse and alcoholism.

Men in this country feel there's no hope, so they turn to drugs, alcohol, video games. They're unemployed. And a lot of women look down on them for it.

Plus, with changing social attitudes, even the notion of finding a wife and forming a committed relationship. Having kids, owning a house, having a stable job… it all seems increasingly hopeless.

I think your take is a little bleak. Having kids and a good relationship is nearly impossible for men to find, even successful men who are great in all aspects of their life. It is a potluck. I think toxic masculinity in women is also an issue. However, I do not think the college thing is as much of an issue. Women tend to get useless 4 year degrees. Men tend to get useful 2-year degrees or even make more money than women without even that. Manufacturing is still alive down here in small cities and towns in the southeast. You just have to leave the big city. Information technology and improved transportation have made big cities for the most part obsolete. I do not think using drugs and alcohol is a big issue for most men(particularly blue collar with nicotine and alcohol). It helps men cope with the harsh reality of current society, and for most men it does not seem to have significant negative consequences besides an earlier death(which as members of this forum I think most of us will discount this). I do not think that many men are unemployed. Suicide is definitely an issue, but we do not have the male population crisis as seen in countries like Russia and other former Warsaw Pact members.
Good quote

I know I'm late to the thread, but I'm sorry you had to delete your thread. Everything you've said as well as this video I'm currently watching is true. And at this rate, it's gonna get worse.

"You don't have to tear men down to include women."

I think we're failing boys and young men by not educating them about the full spectrum of what a man can be. Over recent decades, we've done a good job showing girls a lot of positive female role models. Biographies of women written for preschoolers or grade school children is a whole cottage industry. Most of these are fairly well done, and give an age-appropriate version of the lives of women who were successful or admirable in some way. For early grades children, that looks something like, "Rosa Parks did a brave thing by not giving up her seat on the bus. She did it even though she knew she would be arrested and go to jail, because the law was unfair. She wanted the unfair law changed, so everyone would be treated equally on the bus. She ended up helping many people that day." I realize my writing style is shit for beginning readers; the point is the passage explains what Rosa Parks did and why she was admirable. Children learn that a woman can be brave, can pursue justice, and can provide important service to the community. There are literally hundreds of these biographies out there, and all kids are going to be exposed to at least a few during the course of their childhood.

We don't have an equivalent library of biographies about admirable men written for the same age group or with the same purpose. What we say to small boys is, "What do you want to be when you grow up? A fireman? A police officer? A train engineer?" Those aren't positive examples of manhood, those are just jobs. (Also, nobody's a train engineer, and I don't know why people like dressing toddler boys in old-timey engineer outfits.)

Nobody explicitly says that there is only one acceptable kind of man, but nobody has to. The gender of boys is ruthlessly policed, by men as well as women, and especially by other children. I've seen fights break out between little boys over whether one of them accidentally touched a pink crayon and now has "girl germs." The adult world is not much better. For some reason, Twitter has become a gender-policing weapon of choice. There's a whole sub-genre of tweet dedicated to telling other people how they should live out their manhood or womanhood. But it's usually manhood. (Non-binary people get harassed too, but it usually has more to do with if their gender is real and if they're "really trans" or not. Twitter is the absolute worst.)

As far as I can tell, Twitter's idea of the ideal man is someone who is a caricature of eternal strength. He can like cars and sports and looking at women's butts, and that's about it. Well, put beer and boobs on the list too. He's forbidden to enjoy any kind of sensory pleasure other than beer and sex. No brightly-colored thing. No soft thing (boobs and butts are exempt from the ban). He can't like fancy food. He can't be interested in art. He can't take long showers. He can't nap during the day. Twitter frowns on male dancing. The list is endless, and it's so stupid. Tragically stupid, because some men and boys face serious consequences for stepping outside the narrow bounds of what's permitted for them. Children may be harshly criticized and punished by their parents. Adult guys have been beaten up in parking lots. Being killed is not outside the realm of possibility.

I'm not saying that men can't be classic tough guys if that is their authentic self. We need classic tough guys. We just don't need ONLY classic tough guys.

There's a poster I really like by Karen Hallion, an artist on Etsy. It depicts several men and a word illustrating their contributions to society. Maybe you like these particular guys or not, but they are a diverse bunch, and I think our boys and young men need to see that. Obviously a poster isn't going to solve everything, but I think it was done in the right spirit, and it's a start.

View attachment 101752

Fully agree. Also, it definitely was done in the right spirit. I think. he followed the trope of "we can't count black male athletes as successful because there's so many". Which I find stupid. So what they found most of their success in sports? African Americans are only about 13% of the American population. Black men are probably like 5-6%, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's less given the amount who get murdered by police or criminals. Then how many are also not in prison? I'd like to see someone like Shaq up there instead of Barack Obama who literally stole "hope" from the thousands of families he allowed to be bombed. I know he's not in the military, but we do have a civilian controlled military. He was the commander in chief. Shaq has had success on the court, in real life, and does actually care about the general population.

 

[Pluto]

If your goal is to improve your personal situation, it is wiser to focus attention on self-improvement rather than trying to single-handedly fix society.

That said, there's an historical context behind modern society's gender-relations dysfunction. In the 20th century, women found that they could only start to address severe systemic abuses in education, employment, culture, religion and politics by grouping together. They did what they had to do, which necessitated turning against their male captors.

Today, the disharmony sometimes manifests in unempathetic attitudes between the genders and a lack of harmonious interactions. Intimate relationships may be superficial, cynical or dysfunctional. In response, a dastardly minority of men have become predatory, while a larger number have withdrawn from participation.

For people of either gender whose personal relationships are directly affected by society's growing pains, we definitely were not born at the ideal point in human history. But we are all paying the price for the awful collective behaviour of men over the past few thousand years, and the incomplete process of reaching a sensible balance of power.

This leads back to my earlier point. The best investment is to seek a good role model who hopefully embodies a flavour of masculinity that resonates. Invest energy in understanding women, which will require throwing away much of what you think you know. If you can ultimately achieve a relationship that is positive, respectful and deep, you will have made a small but worthwhile contribution to all of humanity.