Discussion Differences between animal and human parental drives. (Antinatalist rant)

[Forever Sleep]

Firstly, obviously I realise that humans are animals and that the instinctual drive to reproduce is there for both. I think we can probably observe though- that humans are capable of a greater reasoning.

I also realise that there are a lot of nuances to parenting in the animal world- just as in the human world. Some animals make terrific parents. Laying down their own lives to protect their young. Others are terrible- abandoning them, even kiling or eating them! I'd say maybe the general trend is protect at all costs though. But regardless- all of that is instinctual. It's probably not a conscious decision for a fish to eat its children!

That's what frustrates me about human parents though- the seemingly reduced protective instinct. Of course, some are the protect at all cost type.

Still- the simple act of bringing children here in the first place is tossing them into a lottery full of dangers. Some, the parent must realise they have no way of protecting the child from. So- the very act of reproducing is a kind of fail on the protecting front- as I tend to see it.

That child will 100% die at some point. It will probably witness other multiple deaths and it's unlikely to get through life without some illness and unpleasantness. Including extreme things like rape and painful, incurable illness. All with no painless, permitable way of escape.

But, thinking about it, prior to the child being born and after, I tend to wonder if the primary human parenting drive is: What will this give me? I think would- be parents yearn for small, helpless things that will have such a great need for them, that they will give them their love and give purpose to their lives.

There is obviously an instinctive drive to reproduce but, I think humans do tend to at least think about it a bit further. I just wonder how far they go along the: How will I protect my child? thought process though. Because it ought to be clear that they won't be able to! Not really.

Maybe giving that child every opportunity in life- a good education, funding hobbies would seem altruistic but then, how much of it is about moulding offspring they can feel proud of and boast about to others? Plus, that the child will hopefully become wealthy and successful enough to then look after them in old age.

I just think it's an irony really that my approach to life being so square and boring, it's my parents who have consistently put me at the most risk! The greatest one when my Dad remarried and (probably) knowingly exposed me to a (suspected) narcissist- which caused my ideation to begin with.

Otherwise though, I used to travel into town late at night to meet my Dad after work. Never really at other times. Now, I rarely leave the house. I wouldn't risk public transport normally for risk of catching something. I'm freelance so- no sick pay. Yet, I have to risk all that to travel on trains for hours and hours to see them. I just think it's ironic really.

Plus, I'd consider my parents comparatively good! I dread to think about the ones who expose their children to abusive partners or who abuse or neglect them themselves.

Of course, it's not every parent but, I'm thinking more about the drive to have and then raise children in the human world. Is it really so much about protection as much as exploitation in a sense? A desire to get something back all the time.

I guess the protective drive goes into overdrive when it comes to suicide. But even there- is it really a desire to keep the child safe from harm? The child is trying to escape the life they find harmful most likely! I think again, it's that the parent is more concerned about their own loss.

I suspect they do want their child to be happy of course. But, I wonder what percentage of that is magical thinking. Will their child be happy? Can they even get over the things troubling them?

 

[itsgone2]

That child will 100% die at some point. It will probably witness other multiple deaths and it's unlikely to get through life without some illness and unpleasantness. Including extreme things like rape and painful, incurable illness. All with no painless, permitable way of escape.

Your whole rant is correct. I just chose this to quote because no you just don't fully consider it. It's just instinct, reproduce. And I havent been a good parent. I tried. Everything you say is true. It's all flawed. The world seems more pain than happiness now so it does seem cruel.

 

[Pluto]

 

[Kurwenal]

My interpretation of the state of affairs, as whatever is less than a layman, and most certainly not an anthropologist or anyone in any way qualified to comment on something like this is: I don't think that people think.

I honestly believe that a very large portion of humans, now and throughout history, don't really think. Much of humanity is more like an enormous nest of ants (well, parasitic ants), with every drone just doing what basic impulse tells it to do. A lot of people, in my opinion, don't use the critical thinking, the ability to reason, the curiosity of questioning that they have, by right, as humans. They just … do. Just do what everyone else is doing because that must be what's right.

I don't think that most people see the world as a bad place to bring children into. If they stop, take in the data around them, and reason, they may see that it certainly isn't a good place to produce offspring in. They may even realize that they themselves will never be fit to be parents. But this doesn't happen, broadly speaking. People are the children of someone else, so it's natural to them that they will bring children into the world too. It's the done thing. It's how it works, as far as they're concerned.

Humans have immensely powerful brains. Many people don't use them. Of the few who do, insanity is a common enough endpoint. That's my pessimistic and entirely unscientific viewpoint. Feel free to dissect, discuss or ignore.

 

[Forever Sleep]

The world seems more pain than happiness now so it does seem cruel.

I think that's a fair point. I do actually think, when my parents had me, things were just better in the world. More economically stable. No mention even of a climate crisis or possible pandemics. To be fair, maybe there wasn't so much evidence around to suggest things would end up like this.

 

[itsgone2]

I think that's a fair point. I do actually think, when my parents had me, things were just better in the world. More economically stable. No mention even of a climate crisis or possible pandemics. To be fair, maybe there wasn't so much evidence around to suggest things would end up like this.

I agree. I think it's gotten worse with the increase in population. We're all fighting for scarcer resources. And businesses now are far more incentivized to be brutal with layoffs. I'm losing my third job to a merger. It's considered normal now but wasn't for previous generations. You could just work somewhere your whole career. Yes, far more economically stable.
I should have prepared more. Or ctb when I was much younger. I hate dealing with all of this.

 

[Kurwenal]

I think it may be food for thought that children were born in both World Wars. There were babies born in Auschwitz. Childbirths continued through the Black Death. I feel for all those born in such times. They did not choose to enter the world in such horrific circumstances. But they were dragged into this world all the same.

 

[itsgone2]

My interpretation of the state of affairs, as whatever is less than a layman, and most certainly not an anthropologist or anyone in any way qualified to comment on something like this is: I don't think that people think.

I can only speak for myself, but I think you are correct. Too many times in life I just didn't think. There were signs. Thoughts did occur to me. Comments from people wiser than I were made to me. But I did not invest time into critical thinking. Now I see every mistake. And it's glaring and painful.
I would only say this: some people do think. Some do plan their lives correctly. Many were around me and I missed it. Examples in front of my face and I missed it.

 

[Kurwenal]

I can only speak for myself, but I think you are correct. Too many times in life I just didn't think. There were signs. Thoughts did occur to me. Comments from people wiser than I were made to me. But I did not invest time into critical thinking. Now I see every mistake. And it's glaring and painful.
I would only say this: some people do think. Some do plan their lives correctly. Many were around me and I missed it. Examples in front of my face and I missed it.

I'm sorry for your regrets. I share them. I fear my previous message may have come across as having an air of superiority, which was by no means intended: I am very definitely one of those who generally doesn't think. I am driven by impulse, by emotion, by hardwired parts of my brain that I despise. Even now, when I think I'm thinking, when I believe I'm being rational and cold and using reason and deduction, I'm usually not. I'm driven by impulse and recklessness. I am one of the many, many ants. The only quality that separates me from some of them is that I know I'm an ant.

 

[itsgone2]

I'm sorry for your regrets. I share them. I fear my previous message may have come across as having an air of superiority, which was by no means intended: I am very definitely one of those who generally doesn't think. I am driven by impulse, by emotion, by hardwired parts of my brain that I despise. Even now, when I think I'm thinking, when I believe I'm being rational and cold and using reason and deduction, I'm usually not. I'm driven by impulse and recklessness. I am one of the many, many ants. The only quality that separates me from some of them is that I know I'm an ant.

Yes, recklessness. I feel it too. And knowing it now is torture. To see all those past mistakes. To know this, even 5 years ago would make such a difference. I despise parts of my brain too. So focused on the wrong things.
Why? What's the point? Why know all this now? And ultimately my urge now is to end it by ending myself. That's the reward for being enlightened? I'm so horrified I want to die.
And i had it. I lucked into it. Family, friends, a community through church. Slowly lost all of it. All of it. And people watched and saw what i was doing. Saw the insanity. Some tried to say things and I didn't listen.
Kind of ranting but I had a surgery once that a few people were skeptical of. They were right. I was flippant, assumed it would go well. Too much to type here but it ruined years of my life.
And I wasn't home enough. a comment was made to me once about it. Somehow i didn't listen. That person recently retired. His wife too. Both living calm happy lives. And I didn't listen.
So many other things. I should stop. I need to get up.

 

[Dejected 55]

The tricky part is... it is hard for us to be objective about ourselves because we are us. Similarly, it is hard for us to truly know about other animals because we are not them.

If you are getting everything you want, there is little need to branch out to other things. An animal in the wild that has its food and safety has no need for much else. Do you know if/what it thinks? When you train a dog... who is the smarter dog? the one that learns the trick OR the one who willfully refuses to perform?

There was an interesting study with crows I bring up a lot...

Scientists wanted to study crows and use of tools. Outside of primates, they had not observed other animals using tools. Anyway. There was a male crow and a female crow in a caged environment. They would put food in a tube that the birds couldn't reach with their beaks. They put crooked wires in there to see if the birds would figure it out. Both the male and the female birds figured out fairly quickly to use the crooked wire to reach the food and eat it.

Test #2... they stopped providing crooked wires. Instead, they provided straight wires. The male bird pretty much did nothing, but the female bird learned to bend the wire herself to create the tool not provided and get the food. Initially it looks like perhaps the female was smarter... but then... the male bird just takes food from the female. So... was the female bird smarter for making the tool? or the male bird smarter for letting someone else do the work for him? They didn't consider that in their study initially as an outcome.

It's hard to figure out what another person is thinking... and we are people... speaking usually the same language among our peers. So how do we know if/what other animals think? Sure, we have iphones... but does a monkey need an iphone? does a bird? do we? really?

It's a little like being able to juggle. Neat trick, and I can do it by the way, but what's it good for? Does anyone need to be able to juggle or to see anyone else do it? Am I smarter than a monkey because I can juggle and he cannot? Am I more advanced?

 

[Forever Sleep]

The tricky part is... it is hard for us to be objective about ourselves because we are us. Similarly, it is hard for us to truly know about other animals because we are not them.

If you are getting everything you want, there is little need to branch out to other things. An animal in the wild that has its food and safety has no need for much else. Do you know if/what it thinks? When you train a dog... who is the smarter dog? the one that learns the trick OR the one who willfully refuses to perform?

There was an interesting study with crows I bring up a lot...

Scientists wanted to study crows and use of tools. Outside of primates, they had not observed other animals using tools. Anyway. There was a male crow and a female crow in a caged environment. They would put food in a tube that the birds couldn't reach with their beaks. They put crooked wires in there to see if the birds would figure it out. Both the male and the female birds figured out fairly quickly to use the crooked wire to reach the food and eat it.

Test #2... they stopped providing crooked wires. Instead, they provided straight wires. The male bird pretty much did nothing, but the female bird learned to bend the wire herself to create the tool not provided and get the food. Initially it looks like perhaps the female was smarter... but then... the male bird just takes food from the female. So... was the female bird smarter for making the tool? or the male bird smarter for letting someone else do the work for him? They didn't consider that in their study initially as an outcome.

It's hard to figure out what another person is thinking... and we are people... speaking usually the same language among our peers. So how do we know if/what other animals think? Sure, we have iphones... but does a monkey need an iphone? does a bird? do we? really?

It's a little like being able to juggle. Neat trick, and I can do it by the way, but what's it good for? Does anyone need to be able to juggle or to see anyone else do it? Am I smarter than a monkey because I can juggle and he cannot? Am I more advanced?

True, it's hard to really judge and, I have huge respect for animals. I'm sure they are much smarter/ more emotionally sensitive than we give them credit for.

However- I do tend to think we are capable of higher powers of reasoning. Why would they let us destroy their environment otherwise? Wouldn't they have worked out a way to effectively fight us by now? Teamed together even? There are a lot more of them combined.

Google reckons we've made 881 animal species extinct since 1500AD. I doubt any of them went voluntarily extinct. Surely- death to their entire species is pretty strong motivation to act- I would think- so- why haven't they? Because we've worked out how to circumvent them each time. If something's a threat- we kill it.

I also find it fascinating there aren't more known suicides in the animal kingdom- not including animals in captivity. Surely, their lives are incredibly hard. Why wouldn't they want out, just as much as us?

I think maybe they don't consider life/ death in quite the same way. They seemingly just accept their lot and do the best they can with it. Like- can you imagine a bunch of antelopes getting together and complaining how tough their lives are? They seem to act on instinct more.

Humans can do a bunch of seemingly useless things because we don't have to spend so much time hunting or finding fresh water. For many of us, our survival needs are reasonably easily met or- they're provided for us. So, we can indulge our hobbies.

I imagine juggling increases your hand/ eye coordination. If you're particularly good at it, you can use it as a street performer to earn money. It's also a reasonable way to impress others of our species I imagine. So- it could indeed be useful.

I can juggle 3 things rather badly. It was preferable learning that than writing a dissertation for uni. I learnt to juggle and got a pretty appalling mark. Neither skills have highly benefitted me. Either writing essays or, juggling although- maybe given the choice now, I'd prefer to be a better juggler.

I imagine a monkey could learn to juggle if you gave it an incentive. I guess task/ tool based tests with rewards prove a degree of problem solving. It might be harder to test whether a monkey or crow thinks about life that much. Whether it thinks before it copulates that- this might result in a baby. Can I give that baby a good life?

Although, someone recently brought up an interesting rat city project where birth rates did indeed decrease- despite them having their needs met so- who knows?

It's hard to know whether it would be good or bad to know what animals are thinking. I imagine it could be incredibly upsetting with all the suffering we put them through.

 

[Dejected 55]

True, it's hard to really judge and, I have huge respect for animals. I'm sure they are much smarter/ more emotionally sensitive than we give them credit for.

However- I do tend to think we are capable of higher powers of reasoning. Why would they let us destroy their environment otherwise? Wouldn't they have worked out a way to effectively fight us by now? Teamed together even? There are a lot more of them combined.

Google reckons we've made 881 animal species extinct since 1500AD. I doubt any of them went voluntarily extinct. Surely- death to their entire species is pretty strong motivation to act- I would think- so- why haven't they? Because we've worked out how to circumvent them each time. If something's a threat- we kill it.

I also find it fascinating there aren't more known suicides in the animal kingdom- not including animals in captivity. Surely, their lives are incredibly hard. Why wouldn't they want out, just as much as us?

I think maybe they don't consider life/ death in quite the same way. They seemingly just accept their lot and do the best they can with it. Like- can you imagine a bunch of antelopes getting together and complaining how tough their lives are? They seem to act on instinct more.

Humans can do a bunch of seemingly useless things because we don't have to spend so much time hunting or finding fresh water. For many of us, our survival needs are reasonably easily met or- they're provided for us. So, we can indulge our hobbies.

I imagine juggling increases your hand/ eye coordination. If you're particularly good at it, you can use it as a street performer to earn money. It's also a reasonable way to impress others of our species I imagine. So- it could indeed be useful.

I can juggle 3 things rather badly. It was preferable learning that than writing a dissertation for uni. I learnt to juggle and got a pretty appalling mark. Neither skills have highly benefitted me. Either writing essays or, juggling although- maybe given the choice now, I'd prefer to be a better juggler.

I imagine a monkey could learn to juggle if you gave it an incentive. I guess task/ tool based tests with rewards prove a degree of problem solving. It might be harder to test whether a monkey or crow thinks about life that much. Whether it thinks before it copulates that- this might result in a baby. Can I give that baby a good life?

Although, someone recently brought up an interesting rat city project where birth rates did indeed decrease- despite them having their needs met so- who knows?

It's hard to know whether it would be good or bad to know what animals are thinking. I imagine it could be incredibly upsetting with all the suffering we put them through.

Who says they "let us" destroy? The animal kingdom includes insects (which outnumber all of us larger animals) and then there are bacteria and virus as well. Don't forget plants. How do we know climate change isn't nature's way of shrugging us off the planet?

Don't forget... you're trying to apply the way you think to an animal and assuming you are thinking better or more than they are. As I mentioned previously, you can't accurately do this with other humans on a reliable basis and theoretically we know how humans think.

Also, don't make the mistake that success or ability to kill off something makes you better or smarter. Dinosaurs by most of our measures were dumber than the mammals they lorded over until a stray meteor wiped them out. Why did the early mammals who evolved into us need that help? Why didn't they overthrow the much dumber dinosaurs?

"Known suicides" in the animal kingdom... according to who? Are we watching all the animals all the time? We don't know how they think, so how do we know? And don't forget the infamous lemmings... And, again... with humans... they don't know why all of us want to commit suicide or why so many attempts don't succeed or you can rarely look a person in the eye and know 100% whether that person is suicidal or not... and many suicides are investigated and turn out to be murders, while some suspected murders turn out to be suicides. We don't know enough about ourselves, frankly, to go assuming we are the best just because we are us.

Also... as many animals as we endanger... we protect a lot too. Maybe animals notice this and generally in nature animals tend to leave other animals alone in those cases. A lot of the ways we threaten animals in the modern day is from a distance or through poisoning air, and if we didn't have media telling us about this, we wouldn't know it was happening either, just like the rest of the oblivious animals. Do you know right now what various governments of the world are deciding to do today that is going to fuck over other humans in the coming weeks? I don't... and I'm a human... why should the monkeys and the bears and the rabbits know?

When we take time to study them... we usually conclude animals are more intelligent and doing more things than we give them credit. Also, I argue that by existing and being relatively large in population, we inhibit the other animals... much in the same way the dinosaurs inhibited other smaller animals in their day... from developing further. Nature, by design, may only favor a couple of species at the top of the food chain that will thrive for a while and turn resources over from one thing into another and then die out so the next species can move up and thrive on the resources we left behind.