Did Hitler get away with it?

[Snake of Eden]

Hitler committed suicide by taking a cynaide pill. We all know all the bad things he did. Do you think he got free ticket to the void? Did he find peace too?

Honestly how does it make you feel if he did get away with it?

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

Hitler committed suicide by taking a cynaide pill. We all know all the bad things he did. Do you think he got free ticket to the void? Did he find peace too?

Hard to find peace when you're dead. But yes, there's nothing to suggest that he didn't die when he stopped living.

 

[Sherri]

Yes I think and Edit now, he just died and that's it ,I don't think he would be at peace and if hell existed, he did horrific things , but like Frank Sinatra song says, "I did it my way". And got away with it.

Hitler committed suicide by taking a cynaide pill. We all know all the bad things he did. Do you think he got free ticket to the void? Did he find peace too?

Honestly how does it make you feel if he did get away with it?

Do you think cynaide is a peaceful death? Would love to know if it is, barely know anything about it.

 

[Silenos]

There's this documentary film called Little Nicky which shows what happened to Hitler when he died.

 

[Sherri]

There's this documentary film called Little Nicky which shows what happened to Hitler when he died.

Wasn't it close to like that movie the underground if I'm not mistaken? If you have your link would love to watch it. Love documentaries.

 

[Silenos]

Wasn't it close to like that movie the underground if I'm not mistaken? If you have your link would love to watch it. Love documentaries.

It's nothing like Der Untergang. Little Nicky shows him after he died. Here you go.

 

[Sherri]

It's nothing like Der Untergang. Little Nicky shows him after he died. Here you go.

Thank you so much , going to watch it right now. Hugs.

Thank you so much , going to watch it right now. Hugs.

I think you posted a comedy movie instead, little Nicky it says.

 

[noname223]

That is a touchy topic and hard to answer. I think they hanged Mussolini publicly in the streets (partly abused his dead body though the word abuse is not fully accurate). Or the death of Gaddafi was I think recorded and you can find that on the internet I think. This can be seen as humiliation in my opinion and somehow count as revenge.
Hitler should have been forced to an international Crime court as some other Nazis. I ask myself how some of them succeeded with smuggling poison with them so that they could escape from the responsibilty.
At least he had to pay with his life for his crimes. Did you know he hoped that the whole German folk should go down because it could not bring him victory. So he blamed other people for his failures.
It would have been better if there would have been an international process. But at least he could not escape to Argentina as some other Nazis despite the fact some conspiracy theories claim that. (He would have got the death penalty anyway.)

Yes I think and Edit now, he just died and that's it ,I don't think he would be at peace and if hell existed, he did horrific things , but like Frank Sinatra song says, "I did it my way". And got away with it.

Do you think cynaide is a peaceful death? Would love to know if it is, barely know anything about it.

I am pretty sure cyanide is painful. It is a myth it was painless as many TV series pretend. Moreover he not only took this poison he shot himself also in the head. (Together with his wife.)

 

[WoAiGou]

I don't think he got away with it, he died pre maturely probably scared shitless in a bunker. Probably spent the last year and a half of his life regretting every decision he ever made. Do I wish the Soviets got their hands on him? Of course, but at least they won the war, some sense of justice prevailed.

 

[Snake of Eden]

Probably spent the last year and a half of his life regretting every decision he ever made. Do I wish the Soviets got their hands on him?

Maybe regretting the failure of his master plan. I doubt he felt remorse any kind of remorse towards his millions of victims including his lost and injured country men.

 

[WoAiGou]

Maybe regretting the failure of his master plan. I doubt he felt remorse any kind of remorse towards his millions of victims including his lost and injured country men.

Oh yeah I didn't mean remorse, just from a strategic/military sense he made so many blunders in his life and military career.

 

[Wails]

He had the painless, quick death with a bit of dignity that most of us here can only imagine... I in a way feel jealous of him because of that

 

[Silenos]

I think you posted a comedy movie instead, little Nicky it says.

I did not make a mistake. Here's the scene! ;D

 

[Chinaski]

Hitler did not get away with anything - he didn't face justice in accordance with common sensibilities but he ultimately paid the ultimate price for his deeds.

There's often a weird dichotomy with regard to the suicide of common hate figures, in that folk who clamour for the death penalty will be furious if such a figure commits suicide on their own terms, as if they've taken an "easy way out". The end result is the same, after all.

An interesting case in the UK is that of lan Brady, a vile child killer who was convicted in 1965, during a moratorium on the death penalty. Public opinion at the time was that Brady should have hanged, and this continued long after the final abolishment of the death penalty in the UK, as if an exception should have been made for this particularly despicable individual. Then a few years ago he resurfaced, having languished in a hospital for the criminally insane, bringing a court case forward arguing for his right to be transferred to a regular prison so he could refuse food and die - whilst he was considered insane, he could be legally force-fed through a tube. The same public who had demanded his hanging for decades and were furious about the supposedly cushy life he lived behind maximum security prison bars were now in uproar about how he should actually be forced to live, that he didn't deserve to die on his own terms and should continue to suffer the harshest treatment possible. I personally couldn't have cared less about the fate of lan Brady, he's a thoroughly despicable individual who deserves no sympathy, but it's interesting how the same people who say "hanging is too good for them" when bad people aren't executed will also say "he cheated justice like a coward" when they take their own lives.

 

[Sherri]

I did not make a mistake. Here's the scene! ;D

Let me check again :)

 

[9BBN]

I don't support the death penalty. I would be very upset if someone cheated a life sentence of prison if they just ctb on their own terms instead. Some people aren't deterred by death. That's why murder suicides exist. This is the sense in which Hitler "got away with it."

 

[Chinaski]

I don't support the death penalty. I would be very upset if someone cheated a life sentence of prison if they just ctb on their own terms instead. Some people aren't deterred by death. That's why murder suicides exist. This is the sense in which Hitler "got away with it."

I fully disagree here, everyone is entitled to take their own lives, however much we dislike them. The argument that people are not deterred by death applies equally to prison, and l don't think anyone has cheated anything by literally ceasing to exist, which is surely the ultimate price - to say one particularly despicable individual should be forced to stay alive in order to suffer a punitive existence is a slippery slope imo.

 

[9BBN]

I fully disagree here, everyone is entitled to take their own lives, however much we dislike them. The argument that people are not deterred by death applies equally to prison, and l don't think anyone has cheated anything by literally ceasing to exist, which is surely the ultimate price - to say one particularly despicable individual should be forced to stay alive in order to suffer a punitive existence is a slippery slope imo.

I appreciate your pushback, and I have some in return. What do you think people are more deterred by, death sentence or life sentence? I disagree that people are deterred by them equally, but I suppose we have to wait for research on that. I don't think he paid the heavier price, I think he clearly chose to ctb because it was a lighter price to him. I also disagree that death is inherently the ultimate price.
I also don't think Hitler's life sentence would have been purely punitive. With him still alive, his own rhetoric could have diminished his residual following.

 

[Death is beautiful]

I fully disagree here, everyone is entitled to take their own lives, however much we dislike them. The argument that people are not deterred by death applies equally to prison, and l don't think anyone has cheated anything by literally ceasing to exist, which is surely the ultimate price - to say one particularly despicable individual should be forced to stay alive in order to suffer a punitive existence is a slippery slope imo.

do you believe in non-existence after death?

 

[9BBN]

do you believe in non-existence after death?

Yeah, he said "ceasing to exist."

 

[Snake of Eden]

I appreciate your pushback, and I have some in return. What do you think people are more deterred by, death sentence or life sentence? I disagree that people are deterred by them equally, but I suppose we have to wait for research on that. I don't think he paid the heavier price, I think he clearly chose to ctb because it was a lighter price to him. I also disagree that death is inherently the ultimate price.
I also don't think Hitler's life sentence would have been purely punitive. With him still alive, his own rhetoric could have diminished his residual following.

I also would like to add that both of you are making good points. It is hard to imagine in both cases wether he lives to see a fair trial and possible execution or life sentence versus his suicide, it is hard to feel that he actually got to pay for his crimes. If only there is away that he could somehow receive justice even beyond this life. We are hard wired to desire justice so things get back to balance itself out but we cant bring ourselves to believe he may pay for it beyond worldly justice system that failed to hold him accountable for his crimes and can never actually apply any form of sentence that will be enough to make it feel his victims could receive justice

 

[Lost Magic]

Personally, I don't think the universe cares about Hitler and since I don't believe in hell, I don't think he was punished either. Saying that he was a diabolical human being who evaded justice unlike a lot of the rest of the Nazi war criminals who stood trials. But in all honesty, if you were Hitler, you would have taken the cyanide as well.

 

[Chinaski]

I appreciate your pushback, and I have some in return. What do you think people are more deterred by, death sentence or life sentence? I disagree that people are deterred by them equally, but I suppose we have to wait for research on that. I don't think he paid the heavier price, I think he clearly chose to ctb because it was a lighter price to him. I also disagree that death is inherently the ultimate price.
I also don't think Hitler's life sentence would have been purely punitive. With him still alive, his own rhetoric could have diminished his residual following.

Some people would rather die than face life imprisonment, others wouldn't - l would say the number of death row residents who seem to prefer the latter to the former suggests death is not everyone's preferred option, similarly the argument that murder-suicides evidence the fact that death is not a deterrent is not a strong one when you consider most murders do not involve a suicide of the perpetrator. Most people simply don't want to die.

The point you raise about "he paid a lesser price to him" is crucial here. People resent his suicide because he escaped on his own terms. This is parralel with the Brady example above in that people were less concerned about whether he lived or died as much as they were concerned about him not suffering to a required degree.

The latter point l find absurd tbqh - "his own rhetoric could have diminished his own residual following" how exactly? I really don't think Hitler living longer in some out-of-sight cell would have impacted upon how that history is viewed but this is moot given he'd have definitely been summarily executed.

Anyway, ultimately my point is that l personally don't begrudge people, however despicable, taking their own lives and it's a bit weird imo for a forum which is hyper-alert for anything resembling "invalidation" to consider that some people should be forced to live purely to suffer. If someone is facing a fate they consider worse than death and ultimately decide that literally ceasing to exist on their own terms is preferable that is still hardly a positive outcome for that individual.

 

[9BBN]

The point you raise about "he paid a lesser price to him" is crucial here. People resent his suicide because he escaped on his own terms. This is parralel with the Brady example above in that people were less concerned about whether he lived or died as much as they were concerned about him not suffering to a required degree.

He didn't just escape life on his own terms. He escaped the justice system. That's what people are upset about. I don't think he paid any price by ctb. That's a way to avoid paying his debt. I think this stems from our critical disagreement about whether death is the ultimate price or not.

The legal system in general doesn't work as a deterrent if people can escape it. Clearly it deterred him from living, so it would have been a good deterrent if he had no way out. Again, he chose to ctb because the life sentence was the heavier price to pay. So on this basis alone he "got away with it."

I also don't really like the idea of analogizing Hitler with anyone like Brady. But I understand that you're really just analogizing exceptionalism here with exceptionalism there, so I want to quell that point before anyone else brings it up in frenzy.

The latter point l find absurd tbqh - "his own rhetoric could have diminished his own residual following" how exactly? I really don't think Hitler living longer in some out-of-sight cell would have impacted upon how that history is viewed but this is moot given he'd have definitely been summarily executed.

It was a weak point on my part to wager what would happen if he lived, but the main point is that the time served wouldn't be purely punitive.

Anyway, ultimately my point is that l personally don't begrudge people, however despicable, taking their own lives and it's a bit weird imo for a forum which is hyper-alert for anything resembling "invalidation" to consider that some people should be forced to live purely to suffer. If someone is facing a fate they consider worse than death and ultimately decide that literally ceasing to exist on their own terms is preferable that is still hardly a positive outcome for that individual.

This forum advocates affirmation of autonomous adults. Criminals should not be autonomous. I don't advocate euthanasia for ALL.

 

[Chinaski]

Here's the difference in that l do believe in the autonomy of criminals when it comes to ending their lives, in as much as they have the same choice to take theirs as l do to take mine. That's just a given, they can hang themselves in their cells if they wish. This isn't about euthanasia (not sure why that word was used tbh) or even rights, it's about accepting that some people will simply commit suicide.

I'm interested to know where your line is regarding the autonomy of criminals. There are convicted criminals at liberty right now. There are lots of people currently serving sentences in the community for criminal offences. If someone on here was to say "I'm facing five years in jail and I'd rather ctb" would you seek to dissuade on the fact that escaping justice is morally wrong? Or would you consider that the person would be paying too big a price for their criminality by taking their own life? If the removal of autonomy only applies to criminals who meet a particular criteria, who draws that line and where exactly is it? This is precisely why l described it as a slippery slope in an earlier post.

 

[9BBN]

If someone on here was to say "I'm facing five years in jail and I'd rather ctb" would you seek to dissuade on the fact that escaping justice is morally wrong? Or would you consider that the person would be paying too big a price for their criminality by taking their own life? If the removal of autonomy only applies to criminals who meet a particular criteria, who draws that line and where exactly is it? This is precisely why l described it as a slippery slope in an earlier post.

I accept that anyone can ctb whether I like it or not. But their ctb will affect my view of whether they "got away with it" or not. Honestly, I do think that anyone who cheats jail time with death is "getting away with it."

Now, perhaps they are "getting away with it," but they should still have the right to ctb. This is a separate discussion to be clear. In my opinion, allowing criminals to cheat penalties with death would undermine the deterrent. The autonomy of the criminal is outweighed by the safety of society. I'm inclined to say prisoners shouldn't have the right to die while in prison. I'm interested in your reason to give them the same right to die.

Prisoners might practically have the same choice to ctb as we do, but we are not debating what they can practically do, we are debating the rights they ought to have. The world isn't pro-choice just because I can take SN right now. That just means I can break the rules. The question is what the rules ought to be, so we know what to enforce, like should we enforce suicide watch on prisoners or not.
Also: I say the criminal's right to die undermines the deterrent because some criminals are not deterred by death. You say that some criminals are not deterred by prison. So what?

 

[Chinaski]

We are not debating the rights they have - people often discuss suicide as a right erroneously imo, it's not something granted upon good citizens which can be taken away as soon as you evidence suitable character flaws. For me it's the same for criminals as it is for non-criminals, in that if you want to ctb it's up to you, but also be aware that the average person will intervene and prevent. Suicide and self harm statistics in the UK are absolutely alarming and many of these deaths are undoubtedly preventable and tragic in their own way, I'm certainly not here advocating for euthanasia or even a withdrawal of suicide prevention for prisoners, I'm just pointing out what l consider to be peculiarities in the position of withdrawing pro-choice perspectives on an individual basis.

The "autonomy of the criminal is outweighed by the safety of society" is a flawed position unless we are strictly discussing criminality warranting the harshest punishment, ie death or life imprisonment. If someone cheats a five stretch for burglary by killing themselves l don't think the deterrent is undermined by this action - nobody is going to see the suicide of a criminal as a step towards anarchy or a method to dismantle the justice system. Society would not be a less safe place as a result of this, any more than it would be if someone died of a heart attack prior to conviction.

 

[9BBN]

We are not debating the rights they have - people often discuss suicide as a right erroneously imo, it's not something granted upon good citizens which can be taken away as soon as you evidence suitable character flaws.

There's a difference between the "right" to die and the ability to die. We currently only have the latter. If the US removed the second amendment, Americans would only have the ability to bear arms, not the right to bear arms.

We are debating whether Hitler "got away with it" or not. In my opinion, he had no right to die. He cheated his life sentence, the heavier price to pay. He got away with it.

For me it's the same for criminals as it is for non-criminals, in that if you want to ctb it's up to you, but also be aware that the average person will intervene and prevent.

Agreed. We have the same ability, though probably more, to ctb than criminals. That has nothing to do with whether we should enforce suicide watch or not to change that.

I'm just pointing out what l consider to be peculiarities in the position of withdrawing pro-choice perspectives on an individual basis.

Not an individual basis. On the basis of criminals who threaten and stole the autonomy of others.

The "autonomy of the criminal is outweighed by the safety of society" is a flawed position unless we are strictly discussing criminality warranting the harshest punishment, ie death or life imprisonment. If someone cheats a five stretch for burglary by killing themselves l don't think the deterrent is undermined by this action - nobody is going to see the suicide of a criminal as a step towards anarchy or a method to dismantle the justice system. Society would not be a less safe place as a result of this, any more than it would be if someone died of a heart attack prior to conviction.

The ctb would not be seen "as a step toward anarchy or a method to dismantle the justice system," I didn't argue this. I do think society would be a less place safe as a result of this. We would be giving prisoners the ability to cheat their sentences. There is no justice system if it can be escaped.

 

[Lost Magic]

I would also like to add to my previous comment that Hitler did actually lose the war. He didn't get to indoctrinate his Nazi views all over the world like he wanted to. Moreover, he and others killed themselves in that bunker because they knew that there was no path to victory. So, in a way he lost everything that he built in this world. He made short term gains but lost in the long term. So did he really get away with it?

 

[9BBN]

He made short term gains but lost in the long term. So did he really get away with it?

I think you forgot to mention the people he killed.