death education for children

[ksp]

death-ed for children in canada - this should be available in all schools, and all countries

government funded "activity book" targeted toward teaching children about doctor-assisted suicide: https://tnc.news/2022/12/22/health-canada-activity-book-maid/

direct link to pdf:

https://www.virtualhospice.ca/maid/media/3bdlkrve/maid-activity-book.pdf

 

[Forever Sleep]

Hmm, interesting. I think it's a good thing too- for children whose relatives may be going the MAID route. Good to open up and talk about things like death and choice rather than it just being sprung on them.

Still- I think we're a long way from it being part of everyday curriculum. Did you see how much that pro lifer freaked out in the article? Lol.

Reckon we should produce a pamphlet on what you can realistically expect in terms of treatment for various ailments. Maybe it could be one of those stories where you can choose the ending. We have enough material here to produce a whole series- similar to those: 'Choose Your Own Adventure' books. Wonder just how many people would choose mercy and kill off the hero:

Mable is dieing of cancer. She has lost so much weight, she can no longer stand. She has to be fed through a tube going through her nose and into her stomach. She can no longer use the bathroom. She has a catheter inserted into her bladder feeding into a bag taped to her leg. Only the drugs she is being kept on are keeping her alive. She dearly loves her family but she feels poorly everyday.

What should Mable do? What do you think Mable wants to do?

Turn to page 4 for Chemotherapy: (This will extend Mable's life but it will also make her feel sick, tired, loose her hair, possibly get infections, anaemia, bruising and bleeding, and a sore mouth.)

Turn to page 5 for Assisted Suicide: (Mable will receive medication and either a series of injections or a drink to allow her to pass away peacefully.)

I'm sure the same sort of thing can be done for mental disorders, or even everyday life! I wonder how many children (even)- being presented the facts- would actually choose assisted dying for their relatives.

Sure- don't normalise assisted suicide as a natural and medically encouraged route. Still- be realistic about it if you don't want to do that. Just like patients are presented with their odds and options (to an extent)- be straight forward about WHY a person may wish to take that route- because their healthcare and quality of life simple isn't sustainable! At least allow that!

 

[ksp]

Mable is dieing of cancer. She has lost so much weight, she can no longer stand. She has to be fed through a tube going through her nose and into her stomach. She can no longer use the bathroom. She has a catheter inserted into her bladder feeding into a bag taped to her leg. Only the drugs she is being kept on are keeping her alive. She dearly loves her family but she feels poorly everyday.

exactly - exposed the cruelty of life through a balanced approach (the opposite of current rigidity). open up lines of communication with people: life is like this! learn to accept it

i'm imagining life, two generations from now, where voluntary euthanasia is universally accepted, and they'll be unable to understand how our generation was so merciless towards understandable suffering

 

[Forever Sleep]

exactly - exposed the cruelty of life through a balanced approach (the opposite of current rigidity). open up lines of communication with people: life is like this! learn to accept it

i'm imagining life, two generations from now, where voluntary euthanasia is universally accepted, and they'll be unable to understand how our generation was so merciless towards understandable suffering

I wonder if economically- they'll be pushed into allowing it in time. If medicine keeps advancing and we all keep living longer- there will need to be more and more money spent on maintaining the elderly.

I wonder if more and more people will start opting not to have children. I even wonder if future generations will be plagued with more and more mental 'illness' that limits their ability to work. I just wonder if there will ever be a tip in the balance where the money coming in doesn't match that going out. (Suppose I'm mainly thinking in terms of the UK and organisations like the NHS.)

I firmly believe that relaxing assisted suicide laws will come about as a response to economics rather than anything merciful!

 

[ksp]

I firmly believe that relaxing assisted suicide laws will come about as a response to economics rather than anything merciful!

i completely agree with this - humanity and nature will never be merciful (all your other questions are valid)

i don't really care why it will be acceptable, as long as suffering is reduced all over the world

 

[wait.what]

We need to start with death education for grown people…there's this ridiculous idea that if we hide everything death-related carefully enough, it will somehow stop happening. That mentality is quite literally why we have bots auto-posting hotline numbers on Reddit and Google and who the hell knows where else. People figure if they can scrub all public mention of the "s" word and keep its discussion to one magic phone number, it will somehow go away. (No, lol.)

 

[ksp]

We need to start with death education for grown people…there's this ridiculous idea that if we hide everything death-related carefully enough, it will somehow stop happening.

this is way too obvious - society is ridiculous; we deny anything that has to do with death; a few decades ago most funerals were open-casket. how many dead bodies have you seen in the last 10 years? death denial is too strong, as if we will live forever - ignorance is bliss…

 

[FuneralCry]

That is great to hear. After all, death is the most normal and expected thing ever and choosing not to delay the inevitable should be accepted as an option rather than being something so stigmatised. It would be different if something happened to the pro lifer in the news article to make them want to die, that person is clearly very privileged and it's insane to me when they go on about the 'light at the end of the tunnel', like what kind of world do they live in, the reality is that so many people simply don't want to be here and they will just suffer more and more as time goes on and all that we have to look forward to anyway is the inevitable deterioration that comes with old age. It's perfectly rational wishing to escape from all this and it's definitely the right thing to educate children about voluntary death.

I just envy those who are able to get MAID, the process of assisted suicide described in the article sounds so ideal to me and it's just so wrong how it's not legal everywhere in this world.

 

[Wannagonow]

I guess I'll be the one with the different thought- slightly. I don't think that education on this topic should be part of any regular curriculum for young children. I looked at the Canadian activity book. I think it's too much for them. They don't have the ability at that young age to understand and process the info. Sharing the information with young adults who can better process it may help them understand the options that are out there. Providing the info to young adults can help build a healthy foundation towards understanding doctor assisted suicide. Clearly many grown adults don't understand the need or at least purpose for doctor assisted suicide, much less why it should be up to the individual. Adults definitely need to be educated.

 

[ksp]

I guess I'll be the one with the different thought- slightly. I don't think that education on this topic should be part of any regular curriculum for young children. I looked at the Canadian activity book. I think it's too much for them. They don't have the ability at that young age to understand and process the info. Sharing the information with young adults who can better process it may help them understand the options that are out there. Providing the info to young adults can help build a healthy foundation towards understanding doctor assisted suicide. Clearly many grown adults don't understand the need or at least purpose for doctor assisted suicide, much less why it should be up to the individual. Adults definitely need to be educated.

i want to agree with you (you are kind), however:

life and death don't discriminate: 'I think it's too much for them' - is life too much for them?

are you not allowing your children to attend a funeral? (doesn't matter how old they are)
what will you tell them when their grandfather/uncle/mom/sibling passed away?
will they grow up thinking that they moved to another country?
better yet, do you want to re-enforce the idea that they're in heaven, taken be a merciful god?
any other form of denial, in the name of 'protection'?

or do you want them to grow up dealing with facts and logic, dealing with death face-to-face?

death education is not encouraging children to give up on life, or become pro-lifers
it means just this: accept reality, and grow up thinking about your life - that includes your own death

information is power, so make informed decisions, every step of the way

this website is not truly a pro-choice: pro-choice is a given
nor is it pro-death - it's about responsibility, introspection and personal autonomy
hardcore reality - learn to judge yourself

learn to make a balanced, informed, and objective choices as much as possible

you are the only one to make this decision as you move forward; form your own philosophy

other people on the internet can share their own experiences (not always credible), but your own experience will never be substituted by others' opinions or advice; consider different perspectives, but they will never be your own - your perspective has never been experienced before, or after - ever
(not even your parents, soul mate, or best friend)

this is your responsibility, so consider it carefully; if you only trust one person in your life, let it be you

your autonomy doesn't mean that you are care-free; it means that you own your destiny, and are responsible for your life; it doesn't matter how many people will try to 'help' you - ultimately they won't be able to

this is all about you, and on you - take your life into your own hands

ps. this is why i think that voluntary euthanasia will be universally accepted, relatively quickly

 

[Wannagonow]

i want to agree with you (you are kind), however:

life and death don't discriminate: 'I think it's too much for them' - is life too much for them?

are you not allowing your children to attend a funeral? (doesn't matter how old they are)
what will you tell them when their grandfather/uncle/mom/sibling passed away?
will they grow up thinking that they moved to another country?
better yet, do you want to re-enforce the idea that they're in heaven, taken be a merciful god?
any other form of denial, in the name of 'protection'?

or do you want them to grow up dealing with facts and logic, dealing with death face-to-face?

death education is not encouraging children to give up on life, or become pro-lifers
it means just this: accept reality, and grow up thinking about your life - that includes your own death

information is power, so make informed decisions, every step of the way

this website is not truly a pro-choice: pro-choice is a given
nor is it pro-death - it's about responsibility, introspection and personal autonomy
hardcore reality - learn to judge yourself

learn to make a balanced, informed, and objective choices as much as possible

you are the only one to make this decision as you move forward; form your own philosophy

other people on the internet can share their own experiences (not always credible), but your own experience will never be substituted by others' opinions or advice; consider different perspectives, but they will never be your own - your perspective has never been experienced before, or after - ever
(not even your parents, soul mate, or best friend)

this is your responsibility, so consider it carefully; if you only trust one person in your life, let it be you

your autonomy doesn't mean that you are care-free; it means that you own your destiny, and are responsible for your life; it doesn't matter how many people will try to 'help' you - ultimately they won't be able to

this is all about you, and on you - take your life into your own hands

ps. this is why i think that voluntary euthanasia will be universally accepted, relatively quickly

You give a lot to think about. Made me open my head up to a different way of looking at some things. I Have no kids- but yes, they would go to a funeral, no matter what the age. So yeah, maybe education for children of any age should happen. Hmm. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[ksp]

@Wannagonow - thank you for making the conversation better - any points we make about improving our basic human rights will help in the long run

 

[Pluto]

Fisher-Price already tried this but the idea didn't catch on.

 

[ksp]

Fisher-Price already tried this but the idea didn't catch on.

lol :) i remember this !

unfortunately i was not in the right frame of mind for it (i liked it and admired the effort, but never spend too much thinking about it). hopefully society is becoming more empathetic as we progress, for the sake of younger generations

 

[Forever Sleep]

i want to agree with you (you are kind), however:

life and death don't discriminate: 'I think it's too much for them' - is life too much for them?

are you not allowing your children to attend a funeral? (doesn't matter how old they are)
what will you tell them when their grandfather/uncle/mom/sibling passed away?
will they grow up thinking that they moved to another country?
better yet, do you want to re-enforce the idea that they're in heaven, taken be a merciful god?
any other form of denial, in the name of 'protection'?

or do you want them to grow up dealing with facts and logic, dealing with death face-to-face?

death education is not encouraging children to give up on life, or become pro-lifers
it means just this: accept reality, and grow up thinking about your life - that includes your own death

information is power, so make informed decisions, every step of the way

this website is not truly a pro-choice: pro-choice is a given
nor is it pro-death - it's about responsibility, introspection and personal autonomy
hardcore reality - learn to judge yourself

learn to make a balanced, informed, and objective choices as much as possible

you are the only one to make this decision as you move forward; form your own philosophy

other people on the internet can share their own experiences (not always credible), but your own experience will never be substituted by others' opinions or advice; consider different perspectives, but they will never be your own - your perspective has never been experienced before, or after - ever
(not even your parents, soul mate, or best friend)

this is your responsibility, so consider it carefully; if you only trust one person in your life, let it be you

your autonomy doesn't mean that you are care-free; it means that you own your destiny, and are responsible for your life; it doesn't matter how many people will try to 'help' you - ultimately they won't be able to

this is all about you, and on you - take your life into your own hands

ps. this is why i think that voluntary euthanasia will be universally accepted, relatively quickly

I do understand your viewpoint. Funnily enough- a lot of the things you initially described happened to me:

There were 3 close family deaths in my family while I was under the age of 11. My Mum (age 3), Grandpa (age 4), Nana (age 10.) The first funeral I went to was my Grandma's at age 19. My Dad has- in later years regretted that he didn't let me go to my Nana's funeral. I agree- I think 10 is old enough and it would have helped with closure. I ABSOLUTELY understood what death was by that age.

I was also told that all my lost family members were now in heaven- this wasn't exactly a lie (for them)... A lot of my family still believe this.

I'm not really sure that either things REALLY harmed me to be honest. Really- we're unlikely to cope with death all that well- no matter how many books we read about it or how many funerals we go to.

With regards to your response to @Wannagonow - I do actually agree with them. I think that book would be good for a child with a relative going through MAID. However- I personally think it's better to keep the REALLY awful aspects of life hidden from children until they are at an age where they can cope with it better. (Unless of course- nature steps in and educates them early.)

I don't think it's a great idea to introduce into a VERY young child's mind the idea that an adult could abandon them. Especially CHOOSE to abandon them! It may be rational for us but when you are really young- you are UTTERLY dependant on your caregivers. I actually think it would be more traumatising for a young child to start considering all these things- whether they happen or not.

 

[ksp]

However- I personally think it's better to keep the REALLY awful aspects of life hidden from children until they are at an age where they can cope with it better. (Unless of course- nature steps in and educates them early.)

i respect that - try to shield young minds, especially if the are too young, but again the main problem is that nature is extremely cruel and unforgiving, no matter of the age - so basic education will help them to cope, in the long run

I don't think it's a great idea to introduce into a VERY young child's mind the idea that an adult could abandon them. Especially CHOOSE to abandon them!

it's key that children understand to concept of choice, no matter how painful my be. the problem is that it may become traumatic, so it's very important to make them understand, on their level and on their terms, that there are reasons beyond peoples control - they need to understand that life has very hard limitation (mentaly)

ps. your points are very helpful from many aspects

 

[TAW122]

This is a good find, well done @ksp! As for my thoughts on this, I think maybe introducing this closer to adolescence might be better, similar to what @Forever Sleep said, on one hand, one does not want to inundate a child's mind with such a serious topic, but on another hand, we should not have to wait until they are an adult before introducing a very important and fundamental topic into their lives. The exact age and where the line should be drawn would likely be subjective; however, I think we can find a good age where the a child is cognizant as well as emotionally mature and resilient to handle such a serious topic, but not wait until they are too old to start from scratch/ground zero.

 

[ksp]

I think we can find a good age where the a child is cognizant as well as emotionally mature and resilient to handle such a serious topic, but not wait until they are too old to start from scratch/ground zero

very constructive discussion!! death education shouldn't be taboo, and all people should be aware of these topics

 

[ksp]

another thought:

after death of a close relative (mom, dad, sibling), for kids, one of the first lessons about death is the saying: "she's in a better place" - is this healthy?

this saying is meant to bring comfort, but will this comfort bring unintended consequences?
does this mean that the 'current place' is worse?
should i be looking forward to going to 'that place'?
could suicidal ideation be formed from this seed?
does this imply that she still exists, but just not near to us?
does 'that place' imply another level of existence, and if so, does it mean an initial perception of afterlife? (in the mind of a very young child, where the imagination runs wild)

what would a be more politically correct saying, that would bring the same comforting thoughts?

 

[UpandDownPrincess]

This is a horrible way to introduce the subject to children. And this is my field, I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Children's developmental levels vary and their understanding of medical procedures and death vary widely. There is no one-size-fits-all approach to discussing death with children. It needs to be done sensitively and with great respect for the child's development, exposure to medical issues and personal levels of sensitivity.

A much better way to introduce the topic of death is through a book like Lifetimes. If a child has experienced a loss before (the first one is usually a pet), it will be easier to discuss it with them.

There is no reason for a young child to know about someone's catheter, feeding tube or survival meds unless they ask questions. Even then there is a world of difference between giving them plain wording with no explanation and saying that Aunt Sue has a sickness that makes her hurt all over or that Uncle Bill has a sickness that makes it hard for him to use his hands anymore. They also need to be reassured that they, the child, does not have that kind of sickness and won't get it maybe ever or not for a long, long time. Neither will mom on dad.

Kids have a way of generalizing information as well as using their natural egotism to see themselves in any situation. It is incredibly important to address these things as the need arises and gently.

Life is too generous with her unpleasant surprises. There's no need to rush them onto kids.

 

[ksp]

And this is my field

i appreciate your input! (i don't have kids)

but i still have some concerns:

"Children's developmental levels vary and their understanding of medical procedures and death vary widely." - the same goes for all adults, but my main point: death education is missing in schools

"There is no one-size-fits-all approach to discussing death with children." - society must be able to come up with the most basic death education, like you said, with sensitivity - but it must exist

we don't want children to:
- face mortality - very traumatic without basic knowledge!
- embrace mortality - and grow up to be suicidal
we need balance, and gentle acknowledgment

"This is a horrible way to introduce the subject to children" - you have very good points, but i think what is horrible is that death education is completely missing: it belongs in schools, and this education needs to eliminate indoctrination and irrational fear - accepted facts of life

"There is no reason for a young child to know about someone's catheter, feeding tube or survival meds unless they ask questions" - agreed, even though the original post is more geared towards voluntary euthanasia/MAID. still, your point is very valid - we need basic sensitivity in death education, but in all schools

"A much better way to introduce the topic of death is through a book like Lifetimes." - i trust your knowledge, considering that you work in the field - i'd love to read it, but i have to pay for it. do you consider that all children will be able to pay for it? my main point remains: we need free death education in all schools (all schools should have Lifetimes in their curriculums)

"They also need to be reassured that they, the child, does not have that kind of sickness and won't get it maybe ever or not for a long, long time. Neither will mom on dad." - not too sure i agree with this: unreasonable expectations - life is tragic, and it can be tragic at any moment, at least be able to cope with pain, somehow; in a way that will not be devastating or catastrophic - unrecoverable suicidal ideation

"It is incredibly important to address these things as the need arises and gently."
"Life is too generous with her unpleasant surprises. There's no need to rush them onto kids."
when the need arises is way too late: basic death education is need now, and in all schools
this what that suicide prevention needs to be in the future: healthy acknowledgment of deaths, in children

---

currently, the way i define suicide prevention now, in our society: provide nembutal in pharmacy, and let me decide; let me ask for help and not shove it down my throat; provide true solutions to my underlying problems, and admit when you can't - society needs to deal with its limitations, so allow us decency and dignity when we decide that we've had enough

death education will eliminate desperation, impulsivity, allow unbiased introspection, and reduce suicide - ultimately

in fact, this forum should take the initiative and provide death education for children, for free - something that is currently missing in society

we should have a section where desperate kids need to be able to logon and find ways to cope with unforgiving problems that life brings (undeniable), even at their young age

this site provides lessons about death and dying - to adults (18+), but
there is a section in our society that is completely ignored - children and teenagers:
- one free website section should provide knowledge to young children (7 to 14 year olds)
- another section for 15 to 18 year olds - this is critical - NOW !

young children should have free access to the mentioned Lifetimes book (or similar books, or similar info)

ps. thank you again for your input