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noname223

Angelic
Aug 18, 2020
4,332
There is the debate about the singularity of the holocuast. For example some activists compare colonialism with the crimes of the Nazis against the Jews and other minorities. I am not enough informed to make a clearl judgement. My feeling is (maybe because I mostly read German media) yes the holocaust the industrial killing of more than 6 million Jews is unique in human history and differs to different crimes. I am not sure though. Stalin killed also millions. The debate must take place with more nuance than this thread of a fucking no name.

But the main question of this thread means something else. I think the singularity argument does not say whether it is repeatable? I don't know.

In school we debated whether the holocaust could repeat itself in Germany. My best friend said no. Not in the same way. And some of me school friends agreed with him. We were close on a similar academic level. To that time I was a conservative. I disagreed with him. I said yes the holocaust could also repeat itself also in Germany also in a similar pattern, I think he assumed it might could repeat itself against another minority and maybe a different approach. I also disagreed on that. I thought yes the jews could be once again the target and yes also a second NSDAP could emerge.

This school debate is almost one decade old. And well where are we in Germany again? A right-wing extreme party is the second strongest in the polls. Jews are scared to show their religion publicly on the streets. Well I think my feeling was right.

My argument was history is close to limitless. If enough time passes the people will forget, get annoyed, bored etc. And exactly that seems to happen. More and more survivors of the holocaust die. The people become ignorant about history. Es muss jetzt auch mal gut sein damit.... Means: Everything has come to an end. ( -> the commemoration culture (loosely translated). My main argument was in like 30-60 so much time will have passed, generations die, and Germany will exist way more decades/centuries And well 1945 is not even 80 years ago and we are in a pretty dark spot. I think 10 years ago not many would have predicted that such a party really is the second srongest in our country. And the chances are high the situation could become way worse.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limit. I believe in human ignorance and I doubt we have learned our lesson. I don't think we are even capable of that.
 
TransilvanianHunger

TransilvanianHunger

Grave with a view...
Jan 22, 2023
332
They say that history doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes. When it comes to something like the holocaust, I think an event that "rhymes" with it is much more likely to happen than anything that would look like a straight-up repetition. If you look at all the things that make the holocaust the holocaust, it stands out as quite a unique event in history; removed from that unique context, though, you'll find many similar instances of atrocities committed against groups of "others". Hell, less than a decade before the holocaust there was another event with a similar death toll, and it is barely talked about outside of the area where it happened.

There's a bit of recency bias at play here as well, because the holocaust happened within living memory, only a couple generations ago, so it is much more impactful than other atrocities where the victims, their children and great-grandchildren are long gone. Unfortunately, I don't think that the collective lesson that was learned from the holocaust will be around for much longer.
 
K

kane9191kosugi

Member
Sep 20, 2023
65
Yes, because there are far worse atrocities and genocide in the past that are LEAGUES worse than holocaust or anything that has happened during WW2 lol.

I still don't get how in the world humans managed to wipe out (well, nearly) the natives living in North America and Oceania with the low quality weapons that they had. Sure there were diseases that they brought from Europe that were devastating but it's still jaw dropping.

Go back even further and there are the Mongols, …etc. Humanity never seizes to amaze me with how low they can manage to go lol.
 
neurotic

neurotic

𝐈 𝐭𝐡𝐢𝐧𝐤 𝐈'𝐦 𝐢𝐧 𝐥𝐨𝐯𝐞 /// 💜💚💙
May 24, 2023
72
There is the debate about the singularity of the holocuast. For example some activists compare colonialism with the crimes of the Nazis against the Jews and other minorities. I am not enough informed to make a clearl judgement. My feeling is (maybe because I mostly read German media) yes the holocaust the industrial killing of more than 6 million Jews is unique in human history and differs to different crimes. I am not sure though. Stalin killed also millions. The debate must take place with more nuance than this thread of a fucking no name.

But the main question of this thread means something else. I think the singularity argument does not say whether it is repeatable? I don't know.

In school we debated whether the holocaust could repeat itself in Germany. My best friend said no. Not in the same way. And some of me school friends agreed with him. We were close on a similar academic level. To that time I was a conservative. I disagreed with him. I said yes the holocaust could also repeat itself also in Germany also in a similar pattern, I think he assumed it might could repeat itself against another minority and maybe a different approach. I also disagreed on that. I thought yes the jews could be once again the target and yes also a second NSDAP could emerge.

This school debate is almost one decade old. And well where are we in Germany again? A right-wing extreme party is the second strongest in the polls. Jews are scared to show their religion publicly on the streets. Well I think my feeling was right.

My argument was history is close to limitless. If enough time passes the people will forget, get annoyed, bored etc. And exactly that seems to happen. More and more survivors of the holocaust die. The people become ignorant about history. Es muss jetzt auch mal gut sein damit.... Means: Everything has come to an end. ( -> the commemoration culture (loosely translated). My main argument was in like 30-60 so much time will have passed, generations die, and Germany will exist way more decades/centuries And well 1945 is not even 80 years ago and we are in a pretty dark spot. I think 10 years ago not many would have predicted that such a party really is the second srongest in our country. And the chances are high the situation could become way worse.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limit. I believe in human ignorance and I doubt we have learned our lesson. I don't think we are even capable of that.
There are atrocities on par with the holocaust happening right now. The idea that it needs to be exactly like the holocaust to qualify is ridiculous. It's a stupid argument to even have.
 
Pg.964

Pg.964

Lifeless
Jul 27, 2023
83
There is a massive ethnic cleansing campaign right now being covered by several media outlets. The IDF has openly called Palestinians animals. The dehumanization and oppression of those without power will always happen as long as someone stands to gain profit or capital off of it.
 
ladidabi

ladidabi

Losing all hope is freedom.
Mar 19, 2023
28
I wouldn't say repeat, but I believe there are clear, similar patterns done by politicians and people in conflict. It's purely because man is not that unique. People in power are obviously inspired by famous, powerful politicians throughout history. Causing fear creates power. The one with power and dislike of a group of people will do whatever they can in their power to fulfill their interests. With that power, one can bring a larger community against the other, weaker party.

Like some have mentioned, I do agree that the holocaust is definitely not the worst thing that has happened in history of man, but the most talked about. Not to say it wasn't "important" or that bad. However, I think one can say that the motive the nazis had does not pair well with the way of thinking today so far. Most people would tell you what happened was awful. Some may bring up the Israel-Hamas conflict as this repetition, and I have yet to understand the correlation. Religion causes fear, this fear creates power. With power comes respect and others being cautious to not hiss a group up. The conflict is in this stage of creating as much damage and fair until one stops, until complete destruction. That's another topic in itself. No war ends with two men shaking hands. This brings the view of "giving up" power, which is not what politics really is about today.

One can argue that with the fast pace in developing weapons and instability today in many countries hinting to something possibly worse to human kind - Very much possible though.
 
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albert_camus

albert_camus

Absurdist
Jan 8, 2024
12
Of course. Maybe not in the exact same way but in a very similar way. Tendencies are already there.
In fact, people get killed in labour camps in North Korea, Russia, China, etc.
Of course not necessarily/mostly Jewish people, but people of the opposition, Muslims, critical thinking people,...
Right now hate against Jewish people is rising (especially in Europe) and even if I understand the crime(s) Israel as a state and some Israelis as individuals are doing since decades, I will never ever understand why people here in Europe, in the USA, and so on are hating random Jews, just because they relate them to Israel. But I am also absolutely disgusted by Netanjahu and what the state and army of Israel is doing. Killing every terrorist ist the dumbest thing I've ever heard, it's not possible, instead they are just killing literally everyone.
But I generally don't really understand hate. I don't get it why random people are hating on Muslims, gay people, trans people, black people, etc. either. In fact: I hate hate and hate crimes and I hope I'll never ever be one of those people. I will never get it how it's even possible to hate a whole group of people. Of course, I understand if someone hates the actions of horrible people, I also understand anger and so on, but hating a whole bunch of people just because they are Jewish or whatever, nah. That shows me that humanity is a failure.
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

Enlightened
Oct 15, 2023
1,256
There is the debate about the singularity of the holocuast. For example some activists compare colonialism with the crimes of the Nazis against the Jews and other minorities. I am not enough informed to make a clearl judgement. My feeling is (maybe because I mostly read German media) yes the holocaust the industrial killing of more than 6 million Jews is unique in human history and differs to different crimes. I am not sure though. Stalin killed also millions. The debate must take place with more nuance than this thread of a fucking no name.

But the main question of this thread means something else. I think the singularity argument does not say whether it is repeatable? I don't know.

In school we debated whether the holocaust could repeat itself in Germany. My best friend said no. Not in the same way. And some of me school friends agreed with him. We were close on a similar academic level. To that time I was a conservative. I disagreed with him. I said yes the holocaust could also repeat itself also in Germany also in a similar pattern, I think he assumed it might could repeat itself against another minority and maybe a different approach. I also disagreed on that. I thought yes the jews could be once again the target and yes also a second NSDAP could emerge.

This school debate is almost one decade old. And well where are we in Germany again? A right-wing extreme party is the second strongest in the polls. Jews are scared to show their religion publicly on the streets. Well I think my feeling was right.

My argument was history is close to limitless. If enough time passes the people will forget, get annoyed, bored etc. And exactly that seems to happen. More and more survivors of the holocaust die. The people become ignorant about history. Es muss jetzt auch mal gut sein damit.... Means: Everything has come to an end. ( -> the commemoration culture (loosely translated). My main argument was in like 30-60 so much time will have passed, generations die, and Germany will exist way more decades/centuries And well 1945 is not even 80 years ago and we are in a pretty dark spot. I think 10 years ago not many would have predicted that such a party really is the second srongest in our country. And the chances are high the situation could become way worse.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limit. I believe in human ignorance and I doubt we have learned our lesson. I don't think we are even capable of that.
They say that history doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes. When it comes to something like the holocaust, I think an event that "rhymes" with it is much more likely to happen than anything that would look like a straight-up repetition. If you look at all the things that make the holocaust the holocaust, it stands out as quite a unique event in history; removed from that unique context, though, you'll find many similar instances of atrocities committed against groups of "others". Hell, less than a decade before the holocaust there was another event with a similar death toll, and it is barely talked about outside of the area where it happened.

There's a bit of recency bias at play here as well, because the holocaust happened within living memory, only a couple generations ago, so it is much more impactful than other atrocities where the victims, their children and great-grandchildren are long gone. Unfortunately, I don't think that the collective lesson that was learned from the holocaust will be around for much longer.
I would consider that genocide. Look at two of the most genocidal governments in the history of mankind, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. With the Nazis, their approach to genocide was that was one of their goals, one of their key concepts, was to kill these people (industrialized). Its almost like Soviets just didn't care about who died. Its almost like they didn't do it on purpose but they didn't care. So its almost like they just casually committed genocide which to me… is almost a little bit more creepier than what the Nazis did. And also its sad because nobody really talks about what happened back then. But yeah I consider that genocide.
I would consider that genocide. Look at two of the most genocidal governments in the history of mankind, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. With the Nazis, their approach to genocide was that was one of their goals, one of their key concepts, was to kill these people (industrialized). Its almost like Soviets just didn't care about who died. Its almost like they didn't do it on purpose but they didn't care. So its almost like they just casually committed genocide which to me… is almost a little bit more creepier than what the Nazis did. And also its sad because nobody really talks about what happened back then. But yeah I consider that genocide.

"Mao's policies were responsible for vast numbers of deaths, with estimates ranging from 40 to 80 million victims due to starvation, persecution, prison labour, and mass executions…"
After George Washington took power more than four million people were enslaved in America. Eight million Native Americans were killed. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

And yes, I agree - history doesn't necessarily exactly repeat but it often rhymes.
Not everything necessarily has a cyclical nature, but since cyclical things happen again it again and again and again and again and again, they dominate what we observe.
 
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Disappointered

Disappointered

Enlightened
Sep 21, 2020
1,239
Yes, scientific anomalies, made up or occulted facts, and mysterious forms of synchronicity have taken place time and again during even recent history, from pre-event chatter corresponding to a repeated number given divine status, shrunken heads, soap, lampshades, magic gasses and ovens, to documentarists with mysterious forethought about the twin tower attacks. And now, it is happening again. And this will not be the end. Maybe next time there will be.
 
sserafim

sserafim

they say it’s darkest of all before the dawn
Sep 13, 2023
6,598
Idk
 
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Temporal_Anchorite

Temporal_Anchorite

wanting outta this bitch
Sep 23, 2022
88
There are atrocities on par with the holocaust happening right now. The idea that it needs to be exactly like the holocaust to qualify is ridiculous. It's a stupid argument to even have.

Absolutely fucking absurd. The fact that you could even compare Israel's campaign against Hamas to the literal Holocaust is actually disgusting & completely detached from reality. Grow up, read a book, and put away the TikTok brain rot.

There is a massive ethnic cleansing campaign right now being covered by several media outlets. The IDF has openly called Palestinians animals. The dehumanization and oppression of those without power will always happen as long as someone stands to gain profit or capital off of it.

An ethnic cleansing campaign that has somehow left the over 2 million Arab-Israelis in Israel proper completely untouched? Maybe you could enlighten us all by explaining what ethnic group is specifically being targeted?

It's also interesting that your criticism only extends one way. What about the all Palestinians openly calling for the destruction of Israel and the slaughter of Jewish people? No of course not, that's not even a blip on your radar.
 
Pg.964

Pg.964

Lifeless
Jul 27, 2023
83
Absolutely fucking absurd. The fact that you could even compare Israel's campaign against Hamas to the literal Holocaust is actually disgusting & completely detached from reality. Grow up, read a book, and put away the TikTok brain rot.



An ethnic cleansing campaign that has somehow left the over 2 million Arab-Israelis in Israel proper completely untouched? Maybe you could enlighten us all by explaining what ethnic group is specifically being targeted?

It's also interesting that your criticism only extends one way. What about the all Palestinians openly calling for the destruction of Israel and the slaughter of Jewish people? No of course not, that's not even a blip on your radar.
There have been killings of arabs inside of Isreal as well, you really think arabs inside isreal are not oppressed? Not only that but the IDF has killed 3 Israeli hostages who were calling to them for help, they do not even care for the safety of their own civilians. I would never advocate for violence towards any civilians on both sides. But come on be for real, the most pressing humanitarian crisis is happening to the Palestinians, there's no denying that. You criticize Hamas for saying things that the Isreali government has said about Palestinians multiple times but you're failing to recognize that one side has the support of arguably the most powerful country in the world, the United States. Palestinians have nothing, not even basic necessities, the amount of destruction to their infrastructure is catastrophic, these people cannot recover on their own and the death toll has surpassed 30k long ago. This is all i will say, I hope that you can understand I'm simply stating the facts of the matter, have a good one.
 
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Pessimist

Pessimist

Specialist
May 5, 2021
362
There have been killings of arabs inside of Isreal as well, you really think arabs inside isreal are not oppressed? Not only that but the IDF has killed 3 Israeli hostages who were calling to them for help, they do not even care for the safety of their own civilians. I would never advocate for violence towards any civilians on both sides. But come on be for real, the most pressing humanitarian crisis is happening to the Palestinians, there's no denying that. You criticize Hamas for saying things that the Isreali government has said about Palestinians multiple times but you're failing to recognize that one side has the support of arguably the most powerful country in the world, the United States. Palestinians have nothing, not even basic necessities, the amount of destruction to their infrastructure is catastrophic, these people cannot recover on their own and the death toll has surpassed 30k long ago. This is all i will say, I hope that you can understand I'm simply stating the facts of the matter, have a good one.
1. The situation of the Israeli Arabs is very similar to the situation of African Americans. They have significantly higher rates of violence. There are no clear laws against Israeli Arabs and African Americans, but one can claim they are victims of "systemic racism". However, racism exists in every country and society, and it's not exclusive to Israel. If Israel was really that terrible, you would have no explanation for Israeli Arabs who are clearly right-wing Zionists, like Hamad Amar and Yoseph Haddad.

2. The difference between Israel and Hamas is the intention. The IDF is like an apple tree: there's always a possibility of rotten apples. An IDF soldier that is caught committing a crime, such as deliberately attacking civilians, goes to the Israeli military prison. On the other hand, Hamas obviously doesn't have military prisons for war crimes, and their entire charter is genocidal.

1711464251612 1711464258936

It's not something they have said in times of frustration, it's literally their own charter. If you want to know how they talk about Israelis outside of their charter, it's much worse. Here's an example from their Islamist leader, Yahya Sinwar:

1711465061803

Also, they just rejected another generous hostage deal. Trying to negotiate with Hamas is almost painful.



Edit: I would also like to mention that Yahya Sinwar is a murderer himself!

1711466192667
 
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Pg.964

Pg.964

Lifeless
Jul 27, 2023
83
1. The situation of the Israeli Arabs is very similar to the situation of African Americans. They have significantly higher rates of violence. There are no clear laws against Israeli Arabs and African Americans, but one can claim they are victims of "systemic racism". However, racism exists in every country and society, and it's not exclusive to Israel. If Israel was really that terrible, you would have no explanation for Israeli Arabs who are clearly right-wing Zionists, like Hamad Amar and Yoseph Haddad.

2. The difference between Israel and Hamas is the intention. The IDF is like an apple tree: there's always a possibility of rotten apples. An IDF soldier that is caught committing a crime, such as deliberately attacking civilians, goes to the Israeli military prison. On the other hand, Hamas obviously doesn't have military prisons for war crimes, and their entire charter is genocidal.

View attachment 133334View attachment 133335

It's not something they have said in times of frustration, it's literally their own charter. If you want to know how they talk about Israelis outside of their charter, it's much worse. Here's an example from their Islamist leader, Yahya Sinwar:

View attachment 133338

Also, they just rejected another generous hostage deal. Trying to negotiate with Hamas is almost painful.



Edit: I would also like to mention that Yahya Sinwar is a murderer himself!

View attachment 133342

I am not in support of hamas, the palestinian people do not deserve this genocide on the basis of "hamas bad", just as the isreali population does not deserve the inpact this palestinian genocide has had on them. yes there are Arab zionists just as there are pro palestinian isrealis, this point is irrelevant. Norm finklestein has done immense research on the topic of Isreal Palestine, and although not isreali, has parents who are Holocaust survivors, and he advocates for Palestinians because the IDF is doing ethnic cleansing. The international Court of law has had a majority opinion that isreal is violation international law.
The main point I want to drive home is that this is not team sports, this is a humanitarian crisis. The conflict has not started since October 7th it's been decades of oppression and I'd advise you to look into this matter a bit further before jumping to reactionary talking points. This isn't something that affects me personally, I just take issue with the current anti-palestinian narrative. As I've said before, the damage that has been inflicted on the palestinian population is unjustifiable, this is not self defense, it's slaughter. Palestine has not even the bare minimum of necessary supplies to run their hospitals. Meanwhile the USA is dumping enormous amounts of money into isreal. Honestly this is as much America's fault as it is isreals.
I also want to point out that regardless of the intentions of hamas, they have no power to wipe out the Jewish population, they are dying at an incredibly fast rate. The isreali state however, has the means, and will absolutely wipe out as many civilians as possible.
Ultimately I do not care what the idf says, and I do not care what hamas says, it is meaningless. The issue here (and I can't believe I have to explain this) is the human toll this has taken, unimaginable amounts of suffering.
There is no valid justification for this.
I don't want to debate you. I care about the well being of all civillians, I just want you to urge to think a bit deeper and analyze the material conditions surrounding this conflict as well as the history. I hope you understand where I am coming from. I wish you a good day, truly.
 
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Adûnâi

Adûnâi

Little Russian in-cel
Apr 25, 2020
818
The isreali state however, has the means, and will absolutely wipe out as many civilians as possible.
But Israel could have just blockaded Gaza starting in October, and all the Palestinian Arabs there would have died. Instead, Israel is bombing them which has only killed a few tens of thousands. That's clearly not a genocide. Look at what Hitler did to the Russians - starved them in camps in 1941.

Or even look at the Artsakh Armenians who got ethnically cleansed in September 2023 - all 150k of them fled before the Azeri Turks. An argument can be made that the Palestinian Arabs remaining in Gaza are a living proof that the Arabs aren't taking this threat of genocide by Israel seriously.
 
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Pg.964

Pg.964

Lifeless
Jul 27, 2023
83
But Israel could have just blockaded Gaza starting in October, and all the Palestinian Arabs there would have died. Instead, Israel is bombing them which has only killed a few tens of thousands. That's clearly not a genocide. Look at what Hitler did to the Russians - starved them in camps in 1941.

Or even look at the Artsakh Armenians who got ethnically cleansed in September 2023 - all 150k of them fled before the Azeri Turks. An argument can be made that the Palestinian Arabs remaining in Gaza are a living proof that the Arabs aren't taking this threat of genocide by Israel seriously.
A genocide does not have to take place within a day, or even a week, it can be drawn out, such as the Holocaust was. And although the methods and conditions of the Holocaust were objectively worse, it doesn't take away from the current obscenities the isreali government is committing.
And it's not as simple as just leaving, this is their ancestral land, they most likely will never be able to come back. Choosing to leave your home is an incredibly hard decision to come to especially when it's being forced out of you by an occupying force that should not be there. Even the process of seeking refuge is really difficult because you can't move around freely in an active war zone. People have been shot at while trying to go to something as basic as a hospital. I assure you, the Palestinians are not taking this lightly. We can't place blame on the victims here. The real thing we should be saying is "why doesn't isreal stop killing thousands of women and children on a weekly basis?" This isn't the genocide Olympics, both tragedies are valid, the most important difference is that this one is happening as we speak.
 
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Blurry_Buildings

Blurry_Buildings

Just Existing
Sep 27, 2023
280
Never is a strong word to use for an indefinite, potentially infintitely long future that we can't see.

Nothing will ever be exactly the same, but I believe another holocaust under similar circumstances will happen sometime in human history.
 
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Pessimist

Pessimist

Specialist
May 5, 2021
362
I am not in support of hamas, the palestinian people do not deserve this genocide on the basis of "hamas bad", just as the isreali population does not deserve the inpact this palestinian genocide has had on them. yes there are Arab zionists just as there are pro palestinian isrealis, this point is irrelevant. Norm finklestein has done immense research on the topic of Isreal Palestine, and although not isreali, has parents who are Holocaust survivors, and he advocates for Palestinians because the IDF is doing ethnic cleansing. The international Court of law has had a majority opinion that isreal is violation international law.
The main point I want to drive home is that this is not team sports, this is a humanitarian crisis. The conflict has not started since October 7th it's been decades of oppression and I'd advise you to look into this matter a bit further before jumping to reactionary talking points. This isn't something that affects me personally, I just take issue with the current anti-palestinian narrative. As I've said before, the damage that has been inflicted on the palestinian population is unjustifiable, this is not self defense, it's slaughter. Palestine has not even the bare minimum of necessary supplies to run their hospitals. Meanwhile the USA is dumping enormous amounts of money into isreal. Honestly this is as much America's fault as it is isreals.
I also want to point out that regardless of the intentions of hamas, they have no power to wipe out the Jewish population, they are dying at an incredibly fast rate. The isreali state however, has the means, and will absolutely wipe out as many civilians as possible.
Ultimately I do not care what the idf says, and I do not care what hamas says, it is meaningless. The issue here (and I can't believe I have to explain this) is the human toll this has taken, unimaginable amounts of suffering.
There is no valid justification for this.
I don't want to debate you. I care about the well being of all civillians, I just want you to urge to think a bit deeper and analyze the material conditions surrounding this conflict as well as the history. I hope you understand where I am coming from. I wish you a good day, truly.
Do you unironically believe that the Israeli goal is to genocide the Palestinians? If so, I have two questions for you:

1. Why doesn't Israel start by killing the 2 million Palestinians who are citizens of Israel and live inside Israel? Why are they still protected by the IDF?

2. Why does Israel distinguish between Hamas terrorists and the civilian population? Why is Israel losing hundreds of soldiers in Gaza?

1712236722400
Israel is bombing them which has only killed a few tens of thousands.
IDF soldiers have also entered Gaza, and Israel lost hundreds of soldiers since then (1.6k according to Hamas).

1712237363829

1712237349286
 
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