Could liberal euthanasia laws actually lead to lower suicide rates?

[Sensei]

This sounds contradictionary, but bear with me. Let's say that euthanasia laws are liberalized to the point that all cities have a clinic and that all adult citizens in sound mind can apply. Could this actually lead to lower suicide rates in the long run?

I base this assumption on two things:

1) There are countless of testimonies in this forum that you actually can become less suicidial once you've obtained the means to die in peace, as it's easier to cope if you know that you can leave at any time. With euthanasia clinics, (almost) everyone would get that peace of mind and there would perhaps be fewer impulsive suicides. (The estimates of how many of all suicide attempts are impulsive span from 20% to 85%.)

2) An applicant would obviously have to discuss their issues with a psychologist at the euthanasia clinic first, and would thus be given the opportunity to speak openly about sucide and their death wish, and be listened to and taken seriously, maybe for the first time in their life. I think that could make many suicide candidates change their minds, especially those acting on impulse.

This is of course only a thought experiment, but I actually think that this could happen if euthanasia laws were radically liberalized.

 

[TAW122]

I very much believe yes, it would lower suicide rates in general. I can also speak from personal experience here. During late 2018 (near end of it rather), I acquired my method to exit this world on a whim (a firearm) along with the appropriate ammo and such. After acquiring said weapon and then hiding it from everyone (locked up in a case with locks on it) and hidden away somewhere for storage, I felt a sense of relief and peace since I know I can always exit anytime I choose to do so. In 2019, I started a new job for the first time in my life and I felt motivated to give life a chance and take chances on things that I may have chickened out before. This is mainly because I had a reliable and quick access to my method and actually have the ability to exit on my own terms, if/when I choose to, for whatever reason. This is very empowering and has brought me a peace of mind that I never had before. I am only living because I choose to live, not because I have to life and this important distinction changed my attitude towards life.

Also, this reminds of this story here:

Belgian doctors rule depressed 24-year-old woman has right to end her life

'Laura' entered a psychiatric facility when she was 21

www.independent.co.uk

as well as this video (same patient if I remember correctly):



Ultimately, she did not end up dying and chose to live longer. I believe that her ability to continue life and keep going is the knowledge and actual ability to be able to exit if/when she chooses to. Had she not had such means, she would have felt powerless, vulnerable, and unable to escape this hellish existence (called life) on her own terms at her choosing. She is only living because she wants to live, not because she had no choice and was limited to the default (only) option, life.

What many pro-lifers anti-choicers don't get nor want to acknowledge is that there are a lot of people who may actually live longer and/or decide to give life some more chances if they know and actually have a 'means' (doesn't mean they will use it) of an exit, if they choose it rather than the illusion of freedom and choice. They like to believe that if someone had an immediate, reliable, or otherwise means to exit this hellish existence that they will impulsively choose to do so; failing to recognize that a lot of people who impulsively decide to go is because they are cornered, desperate, vulnerable, powerless, and put into a position where they have no other option but to 'live'. Life becomes a mandatory option rather than an voluntary (optional) one.

 

[Sensei]

I very much believe yes, it would lower suicide rates in general. I can also speak from personal experience here. During late 2018 (near end of it rather), I acquired my method to exit this world on a whim (a firearm) along with the appropriate ammo and such. After acquiring said weapon and then hiding it from everyone (locked up in a case with locks on it) and hidden away somewhere for storage, I felt a sense of relief and peace since I know I can always exit anytime I choose to do so. In 2019, I started a new job for the first time in my life and I felt motivated to give life a chance and take chances on things that I may have chickened out before. This is mainly because I had a reliable and quick access to my method and actually have the ability to exit on my own terms, if/when I choose to, for whatever reason. This is very empowering and has brought me a peace of mind that I never had before. I am only living because I choose to live, not because I have to life and this important distinction changed my attitude towards life.

Well put. I'd like to see it as an emergency break. You sit comfortably in your train and enjoy the view, reassured that if disaster approaches, you can end your journey any time you wish.

Also, this reminds of this story here:

Belgian doctors rule depressed 24-year-old woman has right to end her life

'Laura' entered a psychiatric facility when she was 21

www.independent.co.uk

as well as this video (same patient if I remember correctly):



Ultimately, she did not end up dying and chose to live longer. I believe that her ability to continue life and keep going is the knowledge and actual ability to be able to exit if/when she chooses to. Had she not had such means, she would have felt powerless, vulnerable, and unable to escape this hellish existence (called life) on her own terms at her choosing. She is only living because she wants to live, not because she had no choice and was limited to the default (only) option, life.

I've never heard of this case before. A very interesting example which illustrates the point perfectly. It also shows that the attitude to euthanasia is changing in many European countries.

What many pro-lifers anti-choicers don't get nor want to acknowledge is that there are a lot of people who may actually live longer and/or decide to give life some more chances if they know and actually have a 'means' (doesn't mean they will use it) of an exit, if they choose it rather than the illusion of freedom and choice. They like to believe that if someone had an immediate, reliable, or otherwise means to exit this hellish existence that they will impulsively choose to do so; failing to recognize that a lot of people who impulsively decide to go is because they are cornered, desperate, vulnerable, powerless, and put into a position where they have no other option but to 'live'. Life becomes a mandatory option rather than an voluntary (optional) one.

Good point too. I wonder how many members of this community who acquire means to end their lives actually go through with it. My guess is that the percentage is low, maybe 10 %, but that's of course only a guess.

 

[ArtsyDrawer]

Imagine this: you have a death button. It's connected to you specifically, it has some biometrics bullshit so that it can be activated only by you, it detects that you indeed want to die when you press it, it doesn't do this Hallmark movie bullshit where you're sad and press it, but it detects you're in love with some girl, or whatever. it's flawless. Press once for the "you sure you wanna die?" prompt, press the "yes" button to actually die.

Even you think you'd mash it, but you won't. You have a flawless death button. Let's also say it's telepathic, or whatever, so nothing and nobody can stop you from pressing it.
SO!
As I was saying, you have a flawless death button. Since you don't actually have such a thing you, in your current state, think that you'd mash it as soon as you get your hands on such a thing, but I can guarantee with 100% certainty that you won't use it. Not straight away. Once you have it, regardless of your situation, you will wake up and say "my life is shit, yes, however I can opt out at any given moment. I want to actually enjoy things. What's the worst that can happen?"
this will turn into a cycle. A vicious cycle of you enjoying things. You are no longer afraid.
Some girl dumped you? Well, fuck that cunt, then. You have better things to do with your time.
Broke an arm or a leg? Ok, true, the following month is going to suck arse, but by god, that sixtuple backflip would be badass if you didn't land on your face. Two more degrees! Next time you nail that landing!
What's the worse that can happen? You got the death button, after all.
And so, you proceed to live your life until you're about 90, and when some doctor tells you Alzheimer's is starting to kick in, you press that button.
but before that? Your life is going to be exciting. You have no reason to be afraid of anything. Hell, you'll go nuts and try to become the.... I don't know, #1 breakdancer on earth, or some shit!

 

[Sensei]

Imagine this: you have a death button. It's connected to you specifically, it has some biometrics bullshit so that it can be activated only by you, it detects that you indeed want to die when you press it, it doesn't do this Hallmark movie bullshit where you're sad and press it, but it detects you're in love with some girl, or whatever. it's flawless. Press once for the "you sure you wanna die?" prompt, press the "yes" button to actually die.

Even you think you'd mash it, but you won't. You have a flawless death button. Let's also say it's telepathic, or whatever, so nothing and nobody can stop you from pressing it.
SO!
As I was saying, you have a flawless death button. Since you don't actually have such a thing you, in your current state, think that you'd mash it as soon as you get your hands on such a thing, but I can guarantee with 100% certainty that you won't use it. Not straight away. Once you have it, regardless of your situation, you will wake up and say "my life is shit, yes, however I can opt out at any given moment. I want to actually enjoy things. What's the worst that can happen?"
this will turn into a cycle. A vicious cycle of you enjoying things. You are no longer afraid.
Some girl dumped you? Well, fuck that cunt, then. You have better things to do with your time.
Broke an arm or a leg? Ok, true, the following month is going to suck arse, but by god, that sixtuple backflip would be badass if you didn't land on your face. Two more degrees! Next time you nail that landing!
What's the worse that can happen? You got the death button, after all.
And so, you proceed to live your life until you're about 90, and when some doctor tells you Alzheimer's is starting to kick in, you press that button.
but before that? Your life is going to be exciting. You have no reason to be afraid of anything. Hell, you'll go nuts and try to become the.... I don't know, #1 breakdancer on earth, or some shit!

That's a mesmerizing prospect. I think I'd like one of those, please, preferably a mobile device, something I can wear. No matter how painful or humiliating a situation I may find myself in, I can relax, because I have my death device in my pocket.

 

[Mm80]

I think your logic on this makes perfect sense, as throwaway said earlier and yourself too, having the means for a relatively peaceful and reliable method brings relief and a sense of control over ones destiny. Thats all most of us want imo. I suppose the question for me is will it ever happen, even in decades to come? Very interesting stuff.

 

[mediocre]

Well it would certainly help with my anxiety and calm me down for sure having that option. So I believe yes it would.

 

[ReWind]

In the looooong run it could certainly decrease the suicide rates, genetics do play a role in most/a good portion of the mental health issues cases, people with a mental illness or more are at a greater risk of becoming suicidal, if having very easy access to a reliable method would increase the suicide rates in the short and medium term because the genetic pool gets trimmed in the long run you'd have a population with a lower overall predisposition to suicide.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

This sounds contradictionary, but bear with me. Let's say that euthanasia laws are liberalized to the point that all cities have a clinic and that all adult citizens in sound mind can apply. Could this actually lead to lower suicide rates in the long run?

I base this assumption on two things:

1) There are countless of testimonies in this forum that you actually can become less suicidial once you've obtained the means to die in peace, as it's easier to cope if you know that you can leave at any time. With euthanasia clinics, (almost) everyone would get that peace of mind and there would perhaps be fewer impulsive suicides. (The estimates of how many of all suicide attempts are impulsive span from 20% to 85%.)

2) An applicant would obviously have to discuss their issues with a psychologist at the euthanasia clinic first, and would thus be given the opportunity to speak openly about sucide and their death wish, and be listened to and taken seriously, maybe for the first time in their life. I think that could make many suicide candidates change their minds, especially those acting on impulse.

This is of course only a thought experiment, but I actually think that this could happen if euthanasia laws were radically liberalized.

yes, this is my intuition. It's the feeling of being trapped and not seeming to have a way out of a bad situation which increases the wish to ctb.
But once a means becomes available and usable at any time, the feeling of being trapped decreases and coping becomes easier, at least short term.

Also, the fact that suicide is a societal taboo, that is isn't openly talked about, that it isn't within the range of the so-called overton window, probably causes more harm than good, and more suffering for already distressed people, who are then more likely to reach a breaking point and attempt a ctb.
Whether or not liberalising euthanasia laws would lead to lower suicide rates in the long term, I definitely think it would decrease the amount of suffering in society.

 

[Sensei]

In the looooong run it could certainly decrease the suicide rates, genetics do play a role in most/a good portion of the mental health issues cases, people with a mental illness or more are at a greater risk of becoming suicidal, if having very easy access to a reliable method would increase the suicide rates in the short and medium term because the genetic pool gets trimmed in the long run you'd have a population with a lower overall predisposition to suicide.

Interestingly enough, it doesn't work that way. For instance, even though schizophrenia and bipolar disorder have a genetic element and schizophrenic and bipolar people get fewer children than the general population, the prevalences for both disorders remain stable. The explanation is thought to be evolutionary.

 

[ReWind]

Interestingly enough, it doesn't work that way. For instance, even though schizophrenia and bipolar disorder have a genetic element and schizophrenic and bipolar people get fewer children than the general population, the prevalences for both disorders remain stable. The explanation is thought to be evolutionary.

I'd love to read about that could you share an article?

Wouldn't the situation be like cancer though? Cancer occurs naturally, but people with parents that had cancer are at a greater risk, the cancer rate would naturally get to a stable point, but if for some reason people that had cancer would stop having children the rate should go down.

 

[Sensei]

I'd love to read about that could you share an article?

Oh, it was a long time since I researched that. I can give you a, perhaps obvious, example, though. In the Third Reich, the schizophrenic population was almost eradicated, yet today the prevalence is the same in Germany as in other Western countries. Here's a study which connects to that:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2800142/

Wouldn't the situation be like cancer though? Cancer occurs naturally, but people with parents that had cancer are at a greater risk, the cancer rate would naturally get to a stable point, but if for some reason people that had cancer would stop having children the rate should go down.

What makes schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, and possibly also schizoaffective disorder, different from cancer and all (?) other illnesses, is that they actually have some positive traits. For instance, bipolar people score higher on creativity, openess to new ideas, cognitive disinhibition and leadership skills than the general population. These traits can be beneficial from an evolutionary perspective.

 

[Imgonnadie]

treating people with dignity is too complex for small brained government

 

[Wayfaerer]

define "sound mind"

 

[Sensei]

define "sound mind"

If I understand it correctly, it means to be able to think and reason rationally. Thus, people who for instance are intoxicated or affected or suffering from brain damage or dementia can't be said to be in sound mind. Mental illness is in the greyzone. For instance, people suffering from schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are by definition mentally ill and periodically not thinking rationally, but are nevertheless in a sound mind most of the time. (I've thought much about this as I'm bipolar myself.)

 

[_Minsk]

absolutely, countries who have legalized drugs as example also reported decline in drug abuse, might be similar for euthanasia too. i see a ton of positive results from legalizing euthanasia. a few are less pressure, no longer being shamed, more connection, less pretending and so on which might put the suicidal people in a better state. i think a big issue we have is that suicidal people feel left alone and disconnected due to the stigma and rejection. all prohibition is bad i think, it just pushes the not accepted parts of us into the shadows where we absolutely lose all control over it..

 

[TAW122]

Imagine this: you have a death button. It's connected to you specifically, it has some biometrics bullshit so that it can be activated only by you, it detects that you indeed want to die when you press it, it doesn't do this Hallmark movie bullshit where you're sad and press it, but it detects you're in love with some girl, or whatever. it's flawless. Press once for the "you sure you wanna die?" prompt, press the "yes" button to actually die.

Even you think you'd mash it, but you won't. You have a flawless death button. Let's also say it's telepathic, or whatever, so nothing and nobody can stop you from pressing it.
SO!
As I was saying, you have a flawless death button. Since you don't actually have such a thing you, in your current state, think that you'd mash it as soon as you get your hands on such a thing, but I can guarantee with 100% certainty that you won't use it. Not straight away. Once you have it, regardless of your situation, you will wake up and say "my life is shit, yes, however I can opt out at any given moment. I want to actually enjoy things. What's the worst that can happen?"
this will turn into a cycle. A vicious cycle of you enjoying things. You are no longer afraid.
Some girl dumped you? Well, fuck that cunt, then. You have better things to do with your time.
Broke an arm or a leg? Ok, true, the following month is going to suck arse, but by god, that sixtuple backflip would be badass if you didn't land on your face. Two more degrees! Next time you nail that landing!
What's the worse that can happen? You got the death button, after all.
And so, you proceed to live your life until you're about 90, and when some doctor tells you Alzheimer's is starting to kick in, you press that button.
but before that? Your life is going to be exciting. You have no reason to be afraid of anything. Hell, you'll go nuts and try to become the.... I don't know, #1 breakdancer on earth, or some shit!

This is an really interesting take on this topic. I can absolutely relate with this and I am a living example (even to this day). To keep within the analogy of the 'death button', from end of 2018 until near end of 2019, I had my method to check out on a whim (a firearm) and I do feel very free in a sense that I'm no longer afraid to try things, because I know I can, at anytime check out and have the capability to do so if I choose to. So I took risks and did things that normally I would be too scared to do. I thought to myself, well if this encounter failed in 2019, I could always CTB sometime later on, so why not. I took the risk and it paid off, and in 2019, I went from actively wanting to die to just passively. (2020 is a different story though, but that's another topic altogether).

Overall, yes, when people have the means to opt out at their choosing and knowing that they are choosing to live rather than having to live can make a huge difference in how they approach life as well as deal with day to day things. From my experiences, people generally respond better and are happier, more enthusiastic when they are making a voluntary choice versus someone who is put into a position where they are required to or left with no other option.

absolutely, countries who have legalized drugs as example also reported of decline of drug abuse, might be similar for euthanasia too. i see a ton of positive results from legalizing euthanasia. a few are less pressure, no longer being shamed, more connection, less pretending and so on which might put the suicidal people in a better state. i think a big issue we have is that suicidal people feel left alone and disconnected due to the stigma and rejection. all prohibition is bad i think, it just pushes the not accepted parts of us into the shadows where we absolutely lose all control over it..

Absolutely, well said. I too, hope that voluntary euthanasia becomes a thing in the future (with safeguards and checks to ensure there is no abuse or misuse).

 

[so tired or manic]

I'm reminded of how Futurama had suicide booths. Of course they never went into how the booths affected the future, I just remember wishing that was an option.

Just being here my mind travels to suicide far less than it used to and I only happened upon it many years after. If I had something that was around 15 years ago to this effect I would have lived a far better life, or possibly died and avoided all the pain. Either way, a win.