Concerning invalidating suicide reasons

[noname223]

I think this is very controversial in this forum and I am probably with the minority group. I think many people have expressed themselves that they feel their reasons for suicide would be invalidated.
I think it is a very difficult to say whether the choice to commit suicide is a good one for a person who one barely knows. But sometimes the person is not sure him/herself whether he/she should commit suicide. I am cautious not to say something wrong. Especially something that woud increase the pain of the other person.

It is sometimes difficult to say whether the reasons for suicide are persistent. I have seen a lot of people who had pretty good lives but something bad has happened though the problem was still fixable. I can remember members whose relationship had broken and comtemplated suicide. (this is only an example and does not count for all broken relationships). I don't say that this is no good reason to ctb. But I have seen some (not all) people who recovered after such cases really well and now live pretty happy lives. I think if we ask them now whether it was a good decision not to ctb some would say yes. Sometimes I have the feeling some people cannot really evaluate how persistent a problem is during an acute crisis. I don't say everyone's problems are really solvable. But I think especially if someone is not fully sure whether he/she should go this way I rather say something like "if you are not convinced about this step you should think about it again. I have seen many people saying this not only me. And I don't consider this as pro-life.

We could also discuss this on a metalevel or philosophical. I have often read if another person says "this is no reason to ctb" this hurts the other person and can increase the pain of the other person a lot. I would agree to this. I can relate to that. It is a very fine line to talk about this. And if you don't do it with nuance this can hurt the other person a lot. I hope I did not hurt other people with this post (the relationship example could hurt some but I had to take one example). But it is very easy to offense someone talking about this topic.

The philsophiocal question would be are there good and bad reasons for commiting suicide. That is a difficult question. I tried to avoid answering it prior by saying whether the reaons are persistent or not. I have read good arguments (also made by myself): We don't know how the other person feels, we do not understand them fully, don't know their biography and we have different consciousnesses. Everyone perceives pain in a different way. For you it might be no big deal to live alone but another person has horrible pain when thinking about living alone forever.

Still I would argument that some problems are fixable and I truely believe that. Sometimes the person does not want to commit suicide but feels urged to do it. In such cases I think it is not a bad choice to ask whether the other person wants to elaborate about their problems. If someone has a problem which could be solved and I have a good advice with something that might help I would always do it. For me this is not invalidating the suicide reasons. But it is really fine line and I often think some (many?) people cross this line. It has do be done with much empathy and understanding and it is sometimes difficult to find the right words.

But this is just my two cents about this heated topic.

 

[NotStrongEnough]

I think you said it correctly, that everyone has their own reasons for wanting to. To some, my reasons would be absolutely laughable. To me, because they're what I've lived with for decades at this point, sometimes it's a struggle to just be ok with breathing. If I were to tell someone else that, that didn't have these problems, they'd literally laugh at me and tell me how stupid and ridiculous I am. People have said that to me (mostly online and mostly in forums where ctb is not taken seriously).

My personal take on someone talking to me about ctb is, I cannot encourage, and I cannot discourage. The reasons people want to are completely different for each individual, and my judgement on whether their reasons are "acceptable" to me or not are completely irrelevant.

I just try to sit and listen and be there with them. Sometimes that alone might have them wait 1 more day. Sometimes, just today is bad and we need to get through it, and tomorrow will be better. And we literally have an entire lifetime to decide to or not to. That being said, if you think it's time, it's time. And if it's time, then I will stand by and let them do their thing.

It's kind of funny, the one person who actually does understand this in me is probably the number one reason why I want to in the first place.

 

[Onthe29th]

I struggle to figure out how to approach this matter.

I understand that everyone is here because we happen to share a common goal. Not all of us go through with it but that's what makes us come here.

Like you said, some people come to realize that they shouldn't ctb and it's the best decision they've ever made andSometimes, they're stopped mid-attempt and they're upset at first but it turns out to be the best thing that's happened to them but sometimes there's nothing that can be done.

When I read other peoples stories, I don't know which is which because everyone interprets their own experience differently.

What I've decided to do is to softly discourage people in as realistic of a way as I can possibly think of. I don't want to upset them by putting in my two cents about a life that isn't mine, I just want to throw something out there and see what they think. If that person still decides they want to ctb, I will respect that decision. I don't know if this is how I should go about it but so far, it doesn't seem like I've upset anyone and I would apologize if I did.

 

[Suicidebydeath]

They should never be invalidated. I don't know about other people but for me I don't want to talk or list my suicide reasons and I wouldn't be able to say much talking about it. It's easiest to say its an accumulation of things, and people would have a tendency to underestimate what that means. Having to explain ctb reason I should imagine could be frustrating for other people, if not for the same reasons as me.

 

[FuneralCry]

In my opinion, we all have the right to exit at a time of our own choosing, and nobody needs to justify their reasons for leaving. People should just be respectful of other peoples decisions, as that is what it means to be pro choice. If people say things like your reasons to ctb are not valid or suicide is acceptable only in certain circumstances, then that is anti choice, and I see this as being incredibly insensitive. They have no right to say things like this, as I believe that suicide is a personal decision, only the individual knows what is best for themselves and other people have no say in it.

 

[Lost Magic]

I think it all greatly depends on each individual and the way they interpret suffering. I hate to see younger people take their lives (probably because I am older and gave it a go). However, there is no way I can put myself in each individuals shoes and see things from their point of view. From their perspective they are already in hell and maybe have been for years. However, I do believe that a person try everything in their power to better their lives if they still see hope on the horizon. Life can get better (for some), but it doesn't always get better. In my case, I am too tired to even care about any kind of meaningful existence. Each to their own, I say. Sometimes it is better to have a good death than a bad life.

 

[lostautist]

I think it is a very difficult to say whether the choice to commit suicide is a good one for a person who one barely knows. But sometimes the person is not sure him/herself whether he/she should commit suicide. I am cautious not to say something wrong. Especially something that woud increase the pain of the other person.

whether the reasons are persistent or not.

As a caring person, I try to avoid commenting on reasoning. I do find myself hurting when I see what I believe is irrational or impulsive ideation. I'd just wish that everyone that does ctb rationally does it for themself.

 

[Feeding Pigeons]

Yeah we know things can turn around, thats almost always a chance. Thats not a controversial take, thats just logic. The question is whether or not you want to keep playing the game to possibly achieve happiness.

 

[Twiceler]

I think this is very controversial in this forum and I am probably with the minority group. I think many people have expressed themselves that they feel their reasons for suicide would be invalidated.
I think it is a very difficult to say whether the choice to commit suicide is a good one for a person who one barely knows. But sometimes the person is not sure him/herself whether he/she should commit suicide. I am cautious not to say something wrong. Especially something that woud increase the pain of the other person.

It is sometimes difficult to say whether the reasons for suicide are persistent. I have seen a lot of people who had pretty good lives but something bad has happened though the problem was still fixable. I can remember members whose relationship had broken and comtemplated suicide. (this is only an example and does not count for all broken relationships). I don't say that this is no good reason to ctb. But I have seen some (not all) people who recovered after such cases really well and now live pretty happy lives. I think if we ask them now whether it was a good decision not to ctb some would say yes. Sometimes I have the feeling some people cannot really evaluate how persistent a problem is during an acute crisis. I don't say everyone's problems are really solvable. But I think especially if someone is not fully sure whether he/she should go this way I rather say something like "if you are not convinced about this step you should think about it again. I have seen many people saying this not only me. And I don't consider this as pro-life.

We could also discuss this on a metalevel or philosophical. I have often read if another person says "this is no reason to ctb" this hurts the other person and can increase the pain of the other person a lot. I would agree to this. I can relate to that. It is a very fine line to talk about this. And if you don't do it with nuance this can hurt the other person a lot. I hope I did not hurt other people with this post (the relationship example could hurt some but I had to take one example). But it is very easy to offense someone talking about this topic.

The philsophiocal question would be are there good and bad reasons for commiting suicide. That is a difficult question. I tried to avoid answering it prior by saying whether the reaons are persistent or not. I have read good arguments (also made by myself): We don't know how the other person feels, we do not understand them fully, don't know their biography and we have different consciousnesses. Everyone perceives pain in a different way. For you it might be no big deal to live alone but another person has horrible pain when thinking about living alone forever.

Still I would argument that some problems are fixable and I truely believe that. Sometimes the person does not want to commit suicide but feels urged to do it. In such cases I think it is not a bad choice to ask whether the other person wants to elaborate about their problems. If someone has a problem which could be solved and I have a good advice with something that might help I would always do it. For me this is not invalidating the suicide reasons. But it is really fine line and I often think some (many?) people cross this line. It has do be done with much empathy and understanding and it is sometimes difficult to find the right words.

But this is just my two cents about this heated topic.

I suppose you are in the majority group, this is all i want to say. Because you (latently or not) defend living. You can't be a part of minority being optimistic about life. Even on this forum, imho.

 

[GentleJerk]

When I first came to this forum, I had some similar views. I judged another members reasons from my own perspective. That is, as someone who never needed the option of suicide until major health problems started occurring.

I made the mistake of somewhat invalidating one members reasons by questioning their validity and I now believe this was wrong. I do not know what is best for another person who is having the same experience of thinking about suicide, any more than they know what is best for me. Any judgement I am making is really based on nothing more than my preconceived notions of what is 'a good enough reason' and my extremely limited understanding of the other person and their entire life based on a few typed words on my computer screen.

There is no comparison when it comes to this. Whether one person's situation is perceived as worse than another is of no importance, because pain is pain. Don't get me wrong OP, I can understand where you are coming from as I have been there myself. But what this place is for, is open discussion of suicide and understanding so that people can have somewhere to express what they are going through without the sort of judgement they will usually get elsewhere.

It's not my place to decide whether or not someone else is making the right choice in life or not, and to play the role of a savior if I think people need to be saved from themselves, the world is full of this already. Everybody seems to have some idea about what others should and should not do. I like that this place is different.

 

[little helpers]

some good ol' Elliott Smith lyrics for this one:

"cuz everyone is a fucking pro
and they all got answers from troubles they've known
and they all gotta say what you should and shouldn't do
though they don't have a clue"
(St Ides Heaven)

or this:
"everyone body cares, everybody understands
yeah everybody cares 'bout you
yeah whether or not you want them to"
(Everybody Cares, Everybody Understands)

IMO reasons means fuck all. the so-called reasons either means pinpointing what has made our lives unbearable, or what we see (or not see) in our prospects. but attributions need *not* be made when these things simply *exist* in our reality.

as to the potential regretters, I prolly have a callous view on their suicide, if they did follow through. an existential one, perhaps. though I still think we should sit with them and listen to their despair. death is not too bad, but dying a lonely, desperate, excruciating death is.

(edit: typo)

 

[waitingforrest]

I admire your bravery on posting something that is quite controversial. I think that talking about things like this leads to better understanding.

I can agree that some problems are fixable, but I can't say much on whether a reason to ctb is valid or not. I know that I can never truly feel the suffering of another person, words after all, are incomplete in expressing pain.

I truly believe that a person's life is their own and they can do whatever they want with it. I don't think it would be right for me to say what is valid because I am not them.

After all, at the end of the day, we all are suffering. It should not be a contest to see who's pain is bad enough to be considered valid. But just my opinion in the sea of many.

 

[*Psyche*]

In my opinion, we all have the right to exit at a time of our own choosing, and nobody needs to justify their reasons for leaving. People should just be respectful of other peoples decisions, as that is what it means to be pro choice. If people say things like your reasons to ctb are not valid or suicide is acceptable only in certain circumstances, then that is anti choice, and I see this as being incredibly insensitive. They have no right to say things like this, as I believe that suicide is a personal decision, only the individual knows what is best for themselves and other people have no say in it.

In theory, I agree with the majority of what you say in your post. I respect what you have to say as well.

I wouldn't want someone telling me my reasons aren't good enough, or that I should keep trying - as I've been fighting deep depression & suicidal ideations for more than 25 years. I've had many reasons for my ideations, so I can relate to various people. But I can't properly sympathize with everyone & therefore I must tread lightly. So, I understand what you're saying.

However, it greatly saddens me when I believe an individual might be rushing into ctb. I don't mean someone joining the site & doing so within weeks or months. But an impulsive act... if that makes sense.

I in no way wish to be disrespectful or unsympathetic to anyone on here. I would apologize if I have been, unintentionally. I only want to help any person be absolutely positive that they do want to ctb when they decide to act on it, because it's final. There's no coming back from this decision if they die.

So, yes, I have reached out to individuals on this forum if I wholeheartedly believed s/he might act impulsively as a result of a short term crisis. Maybe there is some resolution they have not thought about? Maybe they just need someone who cares enough to listen & understand what they are going through? Are we not here to be supportive of each other in all ways?

No, I'm not an arbiter of someone's choices. They will ultimately do as they wish & I will support them no matter what. THAT IS pro-choice. Giving a person counsel to make an informed life-altering decision in no way affects that stance.

That's my opinion. And I thank the OP for having the courage to broach this subject.