Venting choosing to procreate is a selfish desire

[Darkover]

1. The perpetual victim problem - As long as life exists, some unlucky people will become victims of horrible suffering, they will hate their lives and many among them will deliberately end it (800k exited, 3 million attempts, per year), including many CHILDREN. Even among those who want to live, 10s of millions will die each year, many from incurable and painful diseases, starvation, accidents, crimes, wars, natural and man made disasters, etc. Millions will suffer for years if not decades, before their bodies finally break down and die. Even if 90% of people are glad to be alive, how do you morally justify millions of victims that in all likelihood will never experience anything "worth it"? Lastly, Utopia is impossible so these victims will always be around, forever, it all depends on random luck.
2. The selfish procreation problem - NOBODY can be born for their own sake; therefore all births are literally to fulfill the personal and selfish desires of the parents and existing society. It doesn't matter how much "sacrifices" the parents have to make for their children, it's still a one sided exploitation, because the children never asked for it. People are LITERALLY created as resources and tools for society, to maintain existing people's quality of life, physically and mentally, even the "nice" parents get something out of it, so life is NEVER a "Gift" for the children, more like an imposed burden that comes with a long list of struggles, pain, harm, suffering and eventually death. All in the service of "society".
3. The impossible consent problem - NOBODY can give permission for their own birth, this means all births are one sided exploitation. Critics will say people don't deserve consent until they are mature enough to use it, plus consent can be suspended/exempted for the sake of serving society (the greater good). But, moral rights are not just reserved for existing and mature people, this is why we mostly agree that it's wrong to do anything that could harm future people that don't even exist right now, such as ruining the environment or procreating recklessly. This proves that "future/potential" people have moral rights too, so why can't they have consent right as well? This doesn't change the fact that NOBODY could say no to their own creation, so despite any disagreement about consent right, procreation is still inherently exploitative and coercive.

Conclusion: Due to the THREE moral problems (more like facts) of procreation, it is VERY hard to justify life in general, because you would be selfishly creating people by violating their moral rights and forcing them to live in a risky, harmful and ultimately deadly existence, for no other reason but to maintain YOUR own quality of life.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Consent in this regard is a complicated one. I do understand the predicament from the pronatilist point of view. As in- as far as most of us remember, consent to be born is impossible in the first place. (Unless you are of the belief that we knowingly chose to come here.)

I think you make a good point though. Just because we think consent may be impossible, doesn't mean it still doesn't hold the same moral value. If an animal doesn't understand what death is, it can't consent to be killed. It can't consent to be killed anyway because it doesn't speak our language. Most people would still consider it unethical to just start randomly killing animals.

I just think it's so incredibly risky to bring life here on the off chance that that being may enjoy it. I suppose the argument will be that the majority of people don't hate it so much that they are suicidal. I wonder how much people do enjoy it though. Perhaps they do though- if they choose to bring more life here. I doubt all people prior or after being parents are happy though.

What I do tend to agree with and believe is that probably most people have children to fulfil their own needs. They want to experience that type of love I suppose. I think some people do it in an attempt to 'fix' their own lives. To give them purpose and to feel loved and needed. But- this is a whole sentient life they're bringing here. I just don't think it's right to do that to use them as some sort of emotional crutch like that.

I suppose the thing that really pisses me off though is when parents start to blame their children for things: 'I went through 30 hours of labour bringing you here.' Like that is the child's fault! And really- anything after that to imply that their children have caused them problems or become burdonsome. Like- it was your choice to bring them here! You really ought to have thought it through that it wasn't a robot you were creating! It was a sentient being that picked up whatever hereditary defects you and your partner were carrying. That then was at the mercy of whatever kind of childhood you gave it, whatever illnesses our race is prone to and whatever possibly truly horrific things you may or may not have been able to protect it from. So- why would you expect it to turn out a perfect little angel?

Maybe because they were the model offspring perhaps. I don't know. Sometimes I think some people are just more willing to accept the role. Like other roles in society- wage slaves, totally compliant citizens. I guess- because they accepted all that, they expect us to do the same.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

therefore all births are literally to fulfill the personal and selfish desires of the parents and existing society.

What about cases of people who didn't have much of a choice in the matter? Such as those who fall pregnant due to rape, are forced into having children because of being extemely pressured by certain external factors (e.g. religion, culture, abuse), people who end up pregnant without knowing until it's too late to get an abortion, people who don't have access to abortions, etc? I don't think people in situations in which they don't have much say as to whether or not they want to have children should be labelled as selfish. Not all births are selfish, some are just neutral. Deciding to have kids, however, is always selfish. Births on their own, on the other hand, range from selfish to neutral (and never selfless).

 

[KillingPain267]

I agree 100%

 

[tsykoais]

What about cases of people who didn't have much of a choice in the matter? Such as those who fall pregnant due to rape, are forced into having children because of being extemely pressured by certain external factors (e.g. religion, culture, abuse), people who end up pregnant without knowing until it's too late to get an abortion, people who don't have access to abortions, etc?

this right here, especially with the overturn of roe v wade and many women, especially minority women not having access to proper healthcare. also as a woman in society no matter what culture/religion you are once you reach a certain age people will start questioning why don't you have kids. there's usually always external pressure to have children as a woman because it's seen as a part of womanhood.

 

[Z-A]

You made good points. The evil in nature is beyond unjustified and understandable, mainly due to the forced participation. Procreation is a natural desire unless something interferes with it, such as our morals or physical state. It's a cycle that cannot be stopped by any living beings. Our bodies follow the same natural path, not just for procreation, but for various other needs. I can only blame how this existence has been built to make its living beings so sadistic and selfish. To the point as making us commit such acts as CBT.

 

[Gangrel]

Honestly there's not much to add imo, i would never think of bringing a child in this world, specially in this day and age, humanity just fucked up the entire time

Ngl i lowkey dislike people having babies, they're so clueless of the responsability of bringing a life into this shithole, most of the time they didn't even plan anything. Most of them are not ready to have a disabled child or a lgbtq+ child and yet they think it's just fine to pop out kids. I don't see how that's acceptable by any means.

 

[tsykoais]

All in the service of "society".

i like your points and agree w many of them but the thing is, of course it's selfish but no one is really denying that it isn't. humans like any species are trained for survival. there's a reason why we were able to evolve the way we did. surviving in itself usually requires you to be selfish because you're self preserving and had we all or any species in general collectively held any of these values we as a species would have died out a long time ago. we have survival instinct for a reason.

 

[cosmic-freedom]

this right here, especially with the overturn of roe v wade and many women, especially minority women not having access to proper healthcare. also as a woman in society no matter what culture/religion you are once you reach a certain age people will start questioning why don't you have kids. there's usually always external pressure to have children as a woman because it's seen as a part of womanhood.

No matter how much technology has changed,human society has remained the same.We have rockets and rovers on Mars and artificial intelligence,but for some reason we don't have permanent birth control?

What about cases of people who didn't have much of a choice in the matter? Such as those who fall pregnant due to rape, are forced into having children because of being extemely pressured by certain external factors (e.g. religion, culture, abuse), people who end up pregnant without knowing until it's too late to get an abortion, people who don't have access to abortions, etc? I don't think people in situations in which they don't have much say as to whether or not they want to have children should be labelled as selfish. Not all births are selfish, some are just neutral. Deciding to have kids, however, is always selfish. Births on their own, on the other hand, range from selfish to neutral (and never selfless).

This.And there is also reproductive coercion.I don't think anyone actually wants kids.Nobody.
It's either:

1)Societal pressure leading to cognitive dissonance
2)Pure Accidents

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

You made good points. The evil in nature is beyond unjustified and understandable, mainly due to the forced participation. Procreation is a natural desire unless something interferes with it, such as our morals or physical state. It's a cycle that cannot be stopped by any living beings. Our bodies follow the same natural path, not just for procreation, but for various other needs. I can only blame how this existence has been built to make its living beings so sadistic and selfish. To the point as making us commit such acts as CBT.

I agree with most of your post.

However I don't agree that procreation is a natural desire. I think that is taught .

I don't have any such desire to have children. That's something that is beyond words bad for me to do as a male chimpanzee that I am

The mind is everything what you think you become

 

[tsykoais]

No matter how much technology has changed,human society has remained the same.We have rockets and rovers on Mars and artificial intelligence,but for some reason we don't have permanent birth control?

the government makes it hard for women to not have kids because they want to keep their economy up and afloat. all of birth control is so expensive and it could cost up to 6,000 to get your tubes tied with no insurance, the system is rigged against us women.

 

[Gangrel]

I agree with most of your post.

However I don't agree that procreation is a natural desire. I think that is taught .

I don't have any such desire to have children. That's something that is beyond words bad for me to do as a male chimpanzee that I am

The mind is everything what you think you become

I also think it is taught, ever since i was a kid i was told i must have kids one day. Clearly didn't work on me as i despise the idea.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

I don't think anyone actually wants kids.Nobody.

Nope, there are people who actually do want kids. What I listed doesn't apply to a lot of people who end up becoming parents. A lot of people still choose to have kids.