Discussion But why are we suicidal?

[DoNotLet2]

Hello
Ok so disclaimer: mentioning suicide, this is merely my rumination. And of course I know there are people here who have unbearable problems. This is mostly a thread about "normal" people with "normal" lives and relatively "normal" problems who go commit suicide.

tl;dr our brains are simply not made to deal with nowadays' problems.

There is something that bugs me and doesn't let me sleep. Why are we suicidal? Yes we have problems but people hundreds of years ago had worse problems and they weren't suicidal. People in the first and second world are suicidal even though third world has it worse and people aren't so suicidal there.
7% of Polish teenagers have tried to commit suicide. That's a statistic I have heard and that's a lot. 10% of people are supposed to suffer from depression during their lifetime.

I know nothing but I have been overthinking this. The answer seems simple. We were animals we lived like animals so that's why everything was okay. Now we are still animals but we have problems like humans and that's too hard for our brains. What do I mean? We speak much more sophisticated languages than animals and we look differently but our way of thinking is essentially the same.

For example we think that all outsiders are bad. Because ages ago outsiders were really dangerous. Now they aren't but we are still afraid. Or the very visible thing is our inability to think much time ahead. We choose poorly when it comes to long term advantage. Sacrifice a bit to have a lot later. We do destroy our environment even though we know that destroying our world may mean death to almost all of us. But we can't imagine it. We think it will be okay. Because ages ago we didn't have to think 30 years ahead. We only needed to answer the question "how will I survive this winter?" without caring about next winter. We can't deal with a lot of stimuli and we ignore information that we need because we can't filter information properly. Ages ago even at the worst times we had much much less stimuli to deal with.

There are more problems. Democracy is good but our brains aren't made for this. Few people would be intelligent enough to analyze and understand problems the rest would listen. Now people aren't even humble enough to care about smart people's opinions and as a result we hear from the Right "there is no discrimination" (excuse me?) or from the Left "socialism would solve discrimination" (dude socialism is discrimination by definition! you can't solve flood by flooding!). And as a result people voted for lifting the limitations caused by coronavirus "I don't care that some old people will die, I just hate those masks I can't party hard in a mask".

But which one of the problems causes us to be suicidal? Ability to deal with problems. When we all lived in villages we didn't have so many problems as today and many of those problems were split between all of the villagers. If someone's husband died, it was a moral obligation to help the widow and saying "who gives a shit, get yourself a new man" was a sin. Loneliness wasn't a problem unless you were in dungeons or living alone in a forest. And now? Which one of you feels like they have to carry the entire world on their back? We have so many responsibilities and we have to fight for every fuckin relationship! They expect us to be godlike! Of course you can say "I don't give a shit I won't work more than I feel like" but it will result either in you becoming homeless or you relying on socialism from the Left and the help isn't enough for you to live decently...
Our brain is used to deal with constant threat of starvation but it can't sit home alone for a few months because it gets sick! We are having an epidemic of depression and OCD from coronavirus because most of us becomes sick after just a few months of not meeting friends. And that's why we are suicidal. We have too many responsibilities and it's too hard to have relationships. Ages ago those relationships weren't best but they were!

What do you think? Do you agree or disagree?

 

[TheQ22]

People didn't expect much back then, just hoped to survive and life was simpler.

Now they compare themselves to what they see on instagram and the fake celebrity lifestyles, they want big cars, and houses, and holidays and shiny trinkets, and get depressed when they can't have them because it's how they measure their worth.

They perceive themselves as worth less than others who have more. Plus there are less jobs, everything is more expensive, etc.

In my opinion.

 

[Eren]

Our life is better now, but it is also more complex, or so I think.

In addition, most people today have vital needs covered, although it seems paradoxical, if these basic needs are not covered it is easier to "ignore" other problems such as depression, since your brain prioritizes the search for the most elementary "Food, water, shelter etc .."

 

[DoNotLet2]

People didn't expect much back then, just hoped to survive and life was simpler.

Now they compare themselves to what they see on instagram and the fake celebrity lifestyles, they want big cars, and houses, and holidays and shiny trinkets, and get depressed when they can't have them because it's how they measure their worth.

They perceive themselves as worth less than others who have more. Plus there are less jobs, everything is more expensive, etc.

In my opinion.

Yeah I agree. The norm was much much lower and more people could be considered enough.

Our life is better now, but it is also more complex, or so I think.

In addition, most people today have vital needs covered, although it seems paradoxical, if these basic needs are not covered it is easier to "ignore" other problems such as depression, since your brain prioritizes the search for the most elementary "Food, water, shelter etc .."

I kinda disagree I think our higher needs were simply satisfied better maybe not fully but they were. As I said everybody had relationships or almost everybody. It wasn't a success to have a wife or a husband.

 

[kqlysrsly]

Our life is better now, but it is also more complex, or so I think.

In addition, most people today have vital needs covered, although it seems paradoxical, if these basic needs are not covered it is easier to "ignore" other problems such as depression, since your brain prioritizes the search for the most elementary "Food, water, shelter etc .."

You forgot sex.

 

[Eren]

Yeah I agree. The norm was much much lower and more people could be considered enough.


I kinda disagree I think our higher needs were simply satisfied better maybe not fully but they were. As I said everybody had relationships or almost everybody. It wasn't a success to have a wife or a husband.

there is less and less poverty, humanity was much poorer before than now, that is what I mean. So the motivation was more focused on getting out of that situation.

Yeah I agree. The norm was much much lower and more people could be considered enough.


I kinda disagree I think our higher needs were simply satisfied better maybe not fully but they were. As I said everybody had relationships or almost everybody. It wasn't a success to have a wife or a husband.

obviously I don't think that's the only thing that influences it, besides, before people had less expectations than today. As there were no social networks, people did not tend to compare themselves with other people, etc.

 

[Homecoming]

As there were no social networks, people did not tend to compare themselves with other people, etc.

Agree 100%

Teens become more suicidal nowadays because they keep comparing themselves to others who are better looking, more talented, and wealthier.

 

[Wisdom3_1-9]

The challenges that humanity faces evolve as humanity evolves.

 

[A Retarded Demon]

Simply because we've had enough of the endless bs we go through.

That's how I see it

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Spoiler: Long response

I respect that you're looking at all of the things you are and are making connections, and I fully empathize with how distressing it is and that it can lead to despondence.

I think you make some good points, but I also think you're leaning toward romanticizing the past, or at least overlooking certain elements so that it seems more desireable.

As far as human behavior goes, there is nothing new under the sun. We have the same responses to problems though, yes, there are more problems. If you go back to ancient Greek classics such as Homer, or ancient philosophies and religious texts, people act in the same ways -- judging and controlling others with no empathy or compassion or self-awareness, leaders having too much power and abusing it, the masses having little to no power. The only thing that's new are technologies and, with them, how power and abuse are enacted.

One of the draws of communism was the criticism that work was no longer connected to the means of one's survival. Gandhi is an example in that he refused to use technologies and encouraged people to weave fabric rather than use machinery, and yet he admitted he broke his own rules and went around his own ethics in using printing presses. But in ancient texts there is a bemoaning of having to work -- all living things must work for their survival. When one's work was connected to the means, there were many dangers. There were chances that a crop would not have a yield, and if an entire social area experienced the same, there would be famine. For hunters and gatherers, the animals they hunted could kill them, or the animals would move to a new area, or they and other animals could wipe out vegetation in an area; then they would have to seek new areas in hopes of the abundance they needed for survival. There have always been dangers and risks, and a rational response to such things -- starvation, homelessness, insufferable pain without medicines -- could be suicide.

I don't know what "being suicidal" means, it's a label that many claim, yet each person may experience it differently. I'll return to this idea after looking at the past. Humans have always considered suicide as an option to escape whatever it is they need or want to escape. Suicide is nothing new. Two milennia ago, Romans had an ethical code around death and suicide; they didn't try to stop it, but accepted that death is inevitable, and if one were to suicide, they considered what would be acceptable (sometimes even honorable) reasons for doing so, often taking into mind one's social obligations due to the necessary interconnectedness of being a social animal. The Japanese, a culture with ancient roots, had and in many ways still has a strong code of honor with relation to social interconnectedness.

Western people in the 1800s committed suicide, too. Industrialization was the new technology that was taking its toll. But just because there are no records like there are now of suicides doesn't mean they didn't happen often, and what records there are may be inaccurate because of the stigma around suicide; had the cause of death been known, one may not have been able to have a proper burial, or survivng family members may have suffered ostracization, or a widow may have lost rights if her husband suicided.

I agree there seems to be an epidemic of suicide and, perhaps, "being suicidal." When I was in high school in the Eighties, teenage suicide was a rarity. There have been other changes as well, such as the epidemic of bullying that came along with social media. Society is fucked up like never before. We've had advancements like women no longer being stuck in the home, intellectually bored to death with children and housework, under the financial and social control of their husbands. And yet children don't have the foundation of the family and are more fucked up than ever. Ancient texts, especially Asian (Japanese, Chinese), refer often to the family as being the most important part of society, which is, I think, a main reason why adultery was such a huge sin, because it tore apart the central fundamental unit of society, of the social animal -- the family. The cost of that was that women historically have always carried the heaviest social burdens -- the honor of men, being equally intelligent and capable but stuck at home taking care of the home, the husband, the children. Even Guatama advised women to suck it up and work toward a better rebirth as a man, because there was less suffering and burden in being a man, and more physical power and social capability and power. Yes, there have been women rulers, which proves that women are not incapable, and the Stoics acknowledged that with education, women were as capable of reason as men...but it always comes back to, who's going to take care of the children? Really, I wonder how many voiceless women throughout all of human history (voiceless in that their stories are not recorded like those of men) have attempted to kill themselves when rape was imminent, when they had yet another pregnancy to face on top of all the home and family burdens -- think of how younger women in Asian cultures had to serve not only their husbands and children, but also their mothers-in-law, and had to survive until they were old enough to take a rest and wield the power. Think of how women have always been, and still are, the spoils of war -- to rape, to kidnap and impregnate for ethnic domination.

I don't say all this because I'm a raging feminist, but to consider where the power is, and where powerlessness is, and where the breakdowns are in society.

I think that people now have less and less foundation. I think it is a mistake to think that families were better in the past, before women began working in WWII and the subsequent "feminist revolution," because abuse is one of those things that is part of human nature -- wherever there are positions of power, there is abuse, and husbands abused wives and children, and mothers abused children, and older siblings abused younger siblings, while rulers had power over and abused everyone below them. Perhaps what's worse is that, as bad as it may have been, even the family is no longer a refuge from outside threats, because in the Western world, there is no longer a close nor extended family unit, and the Western world has world dominance and influence. China has had its own issues with how the family unit has been influenced and controlled, so if China becomes a dominant world power, there's not going to be a return to past traditional values.


These are my ponderings and responses to what you wrote. I don't see any answers to what troubles you. I don't see any answers to the things that trouble me, either. I feel like we're all fucked, and no matter how hard I search for answers, and no matter how good my intentions, and no matter how intelligent or capable I may be, I have no power or influence to effect any kind of change. I bemoan that there are no Marcus Aureliuses, and even he knew there were limits to his influence. There would still be arenas with gladiators and animal fights, and people would still be drawn to watch the vapid and unnecessary violence just as they are to reality television. He and other Stoics knew the baseness of human nature would always exist, that those in positions of power would be corrupted, and that it is not the norm nor can it be forced on another to be ethical and mindful of our impacts on others with whom we are socially connected. He and the Stoics knew that their philosphy of virtue and mindful social participation had limited influence, but they did the best they could, each one themselves, first in themselves, and then for the good of their society. I do the same, but goddamn it's hard, because I feel the crushing dominance that's being imposed on us all in this technological age. Some of it benefits and so it's challenging, just like Gandhi with the printing press; it's impossible to not take advantage, to not interact with technology.

Virtues and responsible use of power and influence: in some ways this is what breaks my heart the most and deeply confuses me -- that we have the capacity to be ethical and to overcome our baser instincts, but that we have not evolved as a species, such that what is better for all does not become dominant. Instead, we destroy one another, we destroy environments just as we consider animals like deer to be destructive rodents whose populations must be controlled so they don't wipe out resources and ecosystems, but nor cause a collapse of ecostystems by their loss. There is nothing external keeping humans under control, except humans who want power and control for their own benefit. That within us which would help us to control ourselves and be aware of others is not dominant. It makes me sick to my spirit, in my body, in my emotions, at every level, and that sickness disempowers me when there is nothing I can fight nor influence.

 

[DoNotLet2]

obviously I don't think that's the only thing that influences it, besides, before people had less expectations than today. As there were no social networks, people did not tend to compare themselves with other people, etc.

That's what I meant when I said it was easier to be enough. I think we agree mostly xd

Agree 100%

Teens become more suicidal nowadays because they keep comparing themselves to others who are better looking, more talented, and wealthier.

I didn't mention it but you're right.

The challenges that humanity faces evolve as humanity evolves.

Nah I strongly disagree. We evolve but too slowly. Well not so long ago we still lived like animals it all changed in 20th century.

Simply because we've had enough of the endless bs we go through.

That's how I see it

Sorry but what is bs? Bullshit?


@GoodPersonEffed aww thanks for such a long analysis let's go without quoting this time.
Gosh, you're way more educated than me O.O

Yeah I kinda wrote it badly. Of course you're right and it was so bad.. Ok I'm gonna reply the rest tomorrow.