Discussion "B**M" : good, bad or neutral?

[Disappointered]

I always found the whole bdsm thing to be either ridiculous or creepy. Then, years ago, I found out women's #1 fantasy is to be raped (I know, just fantasy, feeling desired yadayada) which I thought was pretty fucking strange. More recently the whole 50 shades phenom has also surfaced. Turns out now I'm the weirdo because I don't get the appeal of so-called bdsm. There's also psych literature claiming legitimate studies found bdsm people to be healthier than others. Kind of bizarre if you ask me. But then again, I'm suicidal. I'm the pervert here, the deviant. What do people on this forum think? I wonder if there is a lower proportion of bdsm people than in the population at large. And does anyone have a strong opinion about it as either good bad or neutral? I personally think it is bad. Maybe it can be good for some people in the sense that it helps them feel better but I that might just be because their lives are empty and they have emotional problems, perhaps even having been abused. I feel like a lot of people in the s & m world are prone to crime and/or suicide but I'm guessing that's a stereotype that isn't accurate. Still...doesn't the mere fact that this behaviour has become a sexual ritual prove that life and human relations are shit? You'd have have exactly zero faith in the ability for humans to have genuinely 'loving' relationships to degenerate to that, right?

Feel free to delete this if it violates any forum rules. Just bored and wondering what the suicide choice community thinks of this.

 

[MichaelNomad123]

I think that a lot of the appeal of the bdsm activities are largely detached from the reality of living in a bdsm lifestyle for most people. That's just popular culture and fashion trends for you. Bdsm is a pretty broad spectrum and is very subjective. I would almost steer the conversation away from bdsm and point it in the direction as sexuality as a whole, because that's essentially what we're talking about here.

Sex is grey. Sex is grey and the most bizarre human behaviour there is. I think that analysis of peoples preferences is a futile exercise, after doing much of it myself. I've often found that there is no source or reason for someones preferences. For many, sex is a relief and a way of dealing with emotions that they can't otherwise have. For many, the act of sex doesn't even play a part in their release but they are clumped in with sexual activity because of the nature of it. If you think about power dynamics for example, it isn't really about sex. Sex is a PART of it, but only as a means to an end. Think about things like spanking. It isn't about sexual gratification a lot of the time. It's about an emotional relief. Think about self-harm and the common mentality associated with that -- "if I cut myself, the physical pain will take away my emotional pain". It's the same thing.

I think it is a fools errand to analyse or judge someones preference. It is not degenerate to seek comfort in sex or sexual activites, no matter the form it takes. Quite the opposite actually. It's the most human thing there is. You will find that if you dig into extreme BSDM lifestyle couples stories, that they are some of the happiest and most functional relationships around. I don't mention that as a proof, but rather to help you understand that it isn't about the preference or activity but rather the honesty and trust involved in that kind of agreement. That is the foundation of all lasting relationships. It's also about knowing oneself. If you accept yourself, life is better. We all have emotional problems. Some people are just better at dealing with that reality.

 

[Disappointered]

Yes, that's why I posted this in Recovery. I wonder if everyone would be better off doing it or involving rituals to channel emotions as part of sex. As far as finding ways of dealing with emotional problems, would it be a good idea? Could it help a lot of people get better? I really don't know. I guess, as you said, it's just there and there's no point in trying to understand it. Or maybe, as you say, it's like people who self-harm. Trusting enough to engage in consensual self-harm as part of sex. That makes some sense to me but means they are pretty damaged. Anyway, I'm sure there's no answer that's a perfect fit for everyone who does it but I'm guessing there are some that are more common.

 

[MichaelNomad123]

I think we all have our rituals for dealing with emotion. As far as rituals go, I think consensual sex is one of the healthiest ones, whatever its form. It sure beats whatever I do when I'm not in a relationship which is normally self destruction. We're all damaged.

 

[Deleted member 19654]

I think for survivors of abuse, taking part in BDSM can help them process that trauma. Of course it's different for everyone but it can give them a chance to reclaim their power and feel as though they are in more control.

As someone who has unfortunately fallen victim to sexual assault in the past, I can definitely see the appeal. I don't want to think of me or anyone else, as someone who's pretty damaged/broken just because they might be into the idea of BDSM as a result of their past.

 

[Life_and_Death]

I don't want to think of me or anyone else, as someone who's pretty damaged/broken just because they might be into the idea of BDSM as a result of their past.

Accuracy. Of course I have this thing where I want to take it a step farther and literally be...... Of course that falls under a hatred of myself and a need to deserve my pain

Edit: to continue this thought 1 major reason I won't do it is because I know I won't be satisfied. Since I'm looking for it it just wouldn't be that same and I'm still at square 1 where I feel like I don't deserve my pain.

 

[goodbyebunny]

I think for survivors of abuse, taking part in BDSM can help them process that trauma. Of course it's different for everyone but it can give them a chance to reclaim their power and feel as though they are in more control.

Yes, that is part of the appeal for many, I believe. Myself included. That said, I feel really ambivalent towards it, and wonder if I'm not making myself worse. Which is why I don't indulge myself in dynamics like that anymore whenever in a relationship. Of course, that's just me. Not judging anyone else.

 

[Deleted member 19654]

Yes, that is part of the appeal for many, I believe. Myself included. That said, I feel really ambivalent towards it, and wonder if I'm not making myself worse. Which is why I don't indulge myself in dynamics like that anymore whenever in a relationship. Of course, that's just me. Not judging anyone else.

Yeah I do have some mixed feelings myself. There's always a risk that you'd be re-traumatising yourself if you're not careful. Part of me wants to give it a go, but part of me is also worried that I'd be making things worse for myself. It's something that will work for some people, but not for others.

 

[goodbyebunny]

Yeah I do have some mixed feelings myself. There's always a risk that you'd be re-traumatising yourself if you're not careful. Part of me wants to give it a go, but part of me is also worried that I'd be making things worse for myself. It's something that will work for some people, but not for others.

I also found that any boyfriends that I did bdsm type stuff with, respected me less after it. Even if it's just make believe/roleplay, it's warped our relationship for the worse. Which really hurts. Makes me feel like I can't trust or be vulnerable.

 

[Deleted member 19654]

I also found that any boyfriends that I did bdsm type stuff with, respected me less after it. Even if it's just make believe/roleplay, it's warped our relationship for the worse. Which really hurts. Makes me feel like I can't trust or be vulnerable.

You definitely have to be careful who you do it with. There's a difference between dominant and abusive. There should be an element of aftercare where partner should be making sure that you're alright because it can get pretty intense.

 

[Ghost2211]

I would be terrified of most bdsm that results in any real loss of control, but being forced with sexual acts is positive for me. It's one of the main ways I associate sexuality due to history, and the fact that I can say no or stop the process gives safety and control. I talked to my therapist early on about how it confused me that given my history why would I ever find pleasure in essentially being raped. She said it was likely part of the healing process and my brain learning to make what used to scare me into pleasure.

 

[Gnip]

I also found that any boyfriends that I did bdsm type stuff with, respected me less after it. Even if it's just make believe/roleplay, it's warped our relationship for the worse. Which really hurts. Makes me feel like I can't trust or be vulnerable.

That difference is the difference between degradation and worship.

It's good, as long as the "victim" is getting off on it. This sort of thing can be liberating.

Me and the girls I did it with had fun with it. When I was a boy, the slightly older sexually aggressive girl next door I grew up with (who looked like a blow up doll by the time she reached her mid teens) introduced me to it, and we had fun with it. Then when I was a teenager, I read "The Sensuous Man" (and "The Sensuous Woman") so my power trip orientation was always slanted towards getting her off after tying her up.

I think that's the question you need to ask. Are you doing bdsm type stuff for them, or for YOU? If you are being the submissive, do not EVER do it for them at your expense or risk!

No damage was ever done to my relationships with any of the girls I did that sort of thing with (maybe because they knew from the get-go they could trust me, and that trust was never betrayed between us).

Being male does change the dynamic for me though. A girl who's a virgin and wants to remain one can't risk being placed in restraints. (Ditto for a girl worried about pregnancy, STDs, not getting injured or killed). I'm a virgin, so for me, bdsm was a form of completely safe sexual behavior. (It's not something to brag about to other guys, and I never discuss sex with other guys anyways, only girls. That's not how I define my masculinity, and I've never felt any need to prove myself as any kind of "stud" to other guys. I've been friends with girls who had been involved with braggarts, and apparently guys like that don't have much to brag about.)

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I'm like the OP, I don't really get it either. I mean, I can understand wanting to feel safe and giving up power and stuff but it gets weird for me when people bring in things like whips, burning wax, or testicular torture. I'm not into any of that or making anyone feel that way personally. I'd much rather feel equal with someone.

I guess parts of it can be pretty exciting though I also don't fully get how some people will refer to literally every dynamic in society as some form of a Dom and Sub relationship... :p

 

[Gnip]

I would be terrified of most bdsm that results in any real loss of control, but being forced with sexual acts is positive for me. It's one of the main ways I associate sexuality due to history, and the fact that I can say no or stop the process gives safety and control. I talked to my therapist early on about how it confused me that given my history why would I ever find pleasure in essentially being raped. She said it was likely part of the healing process and my brain learning to make what used to scare me into pleasure.

There's a world of difference between rape and "rape." Males typically can't conceptualize it, but when I was a paper delivery boy, I was delivering an issue which had a cover story about a boy getting raped by a man. Confused, I asked my mother, "How can that happen?" She hesitantly answered, "In the butt." I was horrified. Decades later, I read where a feminist author (I forget who) quipped, "Every man should be fucked in the ass so he knows what it's like to be penetrated!" I've always drawn the line at risky sex penetration with bdsm play, even with a willing girl. (Guys don't seem to understand than when his prick is in her mouth, that's when HE is at his most vulnerable, not her, and that includes the risk of infection.)

I'm like the OP, I don't really get it either. I mean, I can understand wanting to feel safe and giving up power and stuff but it gets weird for me when people bring in things like whips, burning wax, or testicular torture. I'm not into any of that or making anyone feel that way personally. I'd much rather feel equal with someone.

I guess parts of it can be pretty exciting though I also don't fully get how some people will refer to literally every dynamic in society as some form of a Dom and Sub relationship... :p

With masochists, it's supposedly the same endorphin rush experienced when cutting oneself. Pain supplies that counteracting trigger.

So far as the societal dynamic of Dom and Sub relationships go, that is essentially what heterosexuality inherently is.

 

[KleinerWolf]

Sex would be boring if it's just vanilla all the time.
I don't see whats wrong with two consensual adults having a good time.
Whatever floats your boat, ya know?

 

[itachi of death]

I stop being into that when my sister accidently died from that..

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

With masochists, it's supposedly the same endorphin rush experienced when cutting oneself. Pain supplies that counteracting trigger.

So far as the societal dynamic of Dom and Sub relationships go, that is essentially what heterosexuality inherently is.

I suppose. I can't get into physical self harm either but that I can also understand at least.

 

[Gnip]

Sex would be boring if it's just vanilla all the time.
I don't see whats wrong with two consensual adults having a good time.
Whatever floats your boat, ya know?

"Erotic is when you do something sensitive and imaginative with a feather. Kinky is when you use the whole chicken." ~ Elmore Leonard

I suppose. I can't get into physical self harm either but that I can also understand at least.

Ice cubes are one thing. Boiling water is another. I ain't scalding anybody.

 

[Disappointered]

I'm like the OP, I don't really get it either. I mean, I can understand wanting to feel safe and giving up power and stuff but it gets weird for me when people bring in things like whips, burning wax, or testicular torture. I'm not into any of that or making anyone feel that way personally. I'd much rather feel equal with someone.

I guess parts of it can be pretty exciting though I also don't fully get how some people will refer to literally every dynamic in society as some form of a Dom and Sub relationship... :p

Yes I agree, especially about testicular torture...and i guess in retrospect it's only appropriate that the latest fad in "psychotherapy" is called cbt!

Re master/slave dynamic a part of me finds that scary and exaggerated...but I also fear that it is, aside from the sense of exaggeration, not entirely inaccurate.

 

[Gnip]

Yes I agree, especially about testicular torture...and i guess in retrospect it's only appropriate that the latest fad in "psychotherapy" is called cbt!

Re master/slave dynamic a part of me finds that scary and exaggerated...but I also fear that it is, aside from the sense of exaggeration, not entirely inaccurate.

The psychotherapy method called CBT came into existence decades before that acronym was ever hijacked as a BDSM term.

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy's not really a fad, the psychiatrist who developed it is 99 years old (Aaron Timken "Tim" Beck, still a very sharp man) and the bestselling book ever written about CBT sold over two million hardcover copies in 1980 ("Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy" by David D. Burns, now 78), so it's been widely known to the general public for a while. Use the term "CBT" in mixed polite company, most who are familiar with those initials will assume you're talking about psychotherapy, not kinky sex. (There are actually mental health support groups who use "Feeling Good" as a manual, since it's actually much more user friendly than anything his mentor Beck was able to describe. Ironically, many kids who are entering the mental health profession today have no idea what they're talking about when they parrot the term "cognitive-behavioral therapy.")
...and I realize, nobody likes a know-it-all (but I promise I know far less than most!)...

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

The psychotherapy method called CBT came into existence decades before that acronym was ever hijacked as a BDSM term.

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy's not really a fad, the psychiatrist who developed it is 99 years old (Aaron Timken "Tim" Beck, still a very sharp man) and the bestselling book ever written about CBT sold over two million hardcover copies in 1980 ("Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy" by David D. Burns, now 78), so it's been widely known to the general public for a while. Use the term "CBT" in mixed polite company, most who are familiar with those initials will assume you're talking about psychotherapy, not kinky sex. (There are actually mental health support groups who use "Feeling Good" as a manual, since it's actually much more user friendly than anything his mentor Beck was able to describe. Ironically, many kids who are entering the mental health profession today have no idea what they're talking about when they parrot the term "cognitive-behavioral therapy.")

Actually I mostly just assumed it was people misspelling "CTB"...I was not aware of either definition for CBT until like a few weeks ago.......

 

[Gnip]

Actually I mostly just assumed it was people misspelling "CTB"...I was not aware of either definition for CBT until like a few weeks ago.......

Well, I realize nobody likes a know-it-all (LOL...but I promise I know far less than most!)...I tend not to use acronyms until actually spelling out the term I'm referring to. On sites like this, I'll do a search for abbreviations like SN to make sure of what members are referring to.

Back in the 1990's, I'd commonly have like 72 windows open at once (yes, Windows '95 could do that) for cross referencing when composing a post, fooling others into thinking I was more knowledgeable than I really was, but much of what I knew to look up came from information which does predate the internet. I've been struggling with my issues all my life, and before the advent of SSRI antidepressants, David Burns and his mentor Gary Emery (who developed Rapid Cognitive Therapy) were the most effective authors on the subject of managing psychological depression for the lay public.

Prozac came out in 1986, while the movie "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" further stigmatized electroconvulsive therapy after revelations that George McGovern's original VP running mate in 1972 had undergone ECT during the 1960's and was forced to drop out of the race after the Democratic Convention that year. "Feeling Good" was clear and easy self help reading which didn't require people to do more than purchase the book.

However, it wasn't known until the 1990's that kids did not outgrow what came to be known as Attention Deficit Disorder, it wasn't until this millennium that obstructive sleep apnea became well known, and I wasn't able to access the best (yet unsuccessful) surgery for OSA until eight years ago.

Frankly, I'm wondering what else I might have which none of us will live long enough to learn about, but obviously cognitive-behavioral therapy wasn't going to be any more helpful with my OSA than it would be for BPD or schizophrenia or Alzheimer's. (Incidentally, I've been using an Alzheimer's drug, Aricept, off-label for my AD/HD since last September, but I can't really say it's helped with my focusing or recall ability. Also, ironically, Kevin Trudeau's infamous Mega Memory course is excellent for helping folks with AD/HD, yet he currently serving time in federal prison for felony fraud. Much of Trudeau's stuff is bullshit, but not Mega Memory. I think part of the reason Trudeau's in jail is because his main rival in mnemonics training, 94 year old Harry Lorayne has taught most of Congress and Hollywood how to memorize.)
BTW, newer is not automatically better, and that includes information on mental health. The decline of books and bookstores is unfortunate, but in 40 years, I don't think "Feeling Good" has ever been surpassed in the area of self help and self relief for depression with a psychological cause.

On sexual deviancy, a German neurologist named Johannes Heinrich Schultz created an extremely simple but powerful relaxation technique he called Autogenic (self generated) Training in 1932. Interestingly, he discovered that sexual fetishes often spontaneously went away during the course of practicing AT, but he required that it be taught by physicians who practiced his method on themselves because of how powerful it is. (For example, AT can be used to regulate thyroid function.) How to do it can be looked up easily enough.)

Today, Autogenic Training is mainly used in Germany, Japan, the UK and Quebec.

 

[Disappointered]

Well I hope the cbt helped you...either kind. I heard of both kinds at around the same time in the 2000s when there seemed to be a major push to impose it into publicly funded mental health care. It never worked for me. Seemed like a more involved form of "how to make friends and influence people" or other positive thinking books. I felt like the goal was to convince me that certain things weren't really happening, as though the therapist could know better even though they aren't there when I'm perceiving things. Or as though objectivity can't really exist or something. Anyway, whatever the reasons it didn't do me any good.

 

[Disappointered]

It still surprises me but it seems there is an overlap between pleasure and pain, to the extent that in certain circumstances pain can "surprisingly, have positive psychological effects, and the main one is interpersonal bonding" and result in "increases in relationship closeness" which sounds like there could even be an emotional component. Sounds like in some circumstances pain during sex can result in bonding, unless I'm misinterpreting something in the article. But then again, they do specifically use the word bonding.

I've heard of some people even going to extremes and bonding through practices that result in painful changes to different parts of their anatomy. Who'd have ever imagined that painful damage to someone's anatomy - whether mild or severe - during a sexual exchange could result in a form of bonding. Some studies on bdsm have also cited memories as part of what alters the experience of pain during the exchange so I guess its possible that a past bond through painful sexual exchange could continue to affect someone's sexual experiences in the future. I wonder what implication that might have about how we understand human sexuality. Far be it from me to question the scientists.

Why do some people enjoy experiencing pain during sex?

Some people find painful sensations pleasurable or arousing during sex or erotic play. How is this possible? Read this Spotlight feature to find out.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

Physical Pain as Pleasure: A Theoretical Perspective - PubMed

Physical pain represents a common feature of Bondage and Discipline/Dominance and Submission/Sadism and Machochism (BDSM) activity. This article explores the literature accounting for how painful stimuli may be experienced as pleasurable among practitioners of BDSM, and contrasting this with how...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[ovaltinee99]

Why is this in the recovery section

 

[NightmareTour]

I've been in a couple of BDSM relationships, and I can agree with others when they say that it isn't just about sex. For me, a lot of it was about being able to take on a role that I couldn't allow myself to have normally, in an environment that's safe and full of trust.I know I'm capable of being assertive, I've just been taught my entire life that it's bad. It applies to other things as well. Some people use it to cope with things that have happened to them in a way they have control over. It also really helps to build trust between people.

It's impossible to determine the purpose of each individual person's kinks or sexual choices (BDSM lifestyle is different to kinks, even if there is a lot of overlap) because it's different for everyone. But in my opinion, as long as it's done safely between consenting adults, it's not unhealthy. I think it's probably one of the healthiest coping mechanisms I've used.

 

[Gnip]

I've been in a couple of BDSM relationships, and I can agree with others when they say that it isn't just about sex. For me, a lot of it was about being able to take on a role that I couldn't allow myself to have normally, in an environment that's safe and full of trust. I know I'm capable of being assertive, I've just been taught my entire life that it's bad. It applies to other things as well. Some people use it to cope with things that have happened to them in a way they have control over. It also really helps to build trust between people.

It's impossible to determine the purpose of each individual person's kinks or sexual choices (BDSM lifestyle is different to kinks, even if there is a lot of overlap) because it's different for everyone. But in my opinion, as long as it's done safely between consenting adults, it's not unhealthy. I think it's probably one of the healthiest coping mechanisms I've used.

About you having been taught that assertiveness is bad, I was groomed and cultivated all my life towards this belief and attitude, then I read and researched a series of classical books on assertiveness training during one summer, but was not able to implement the principals against the pattern which had already been chiseled into my life.

However, five years after that research, at the suggestion of a manager of mine who is bipolar, I tried Neurontin, and that first experience with Neurontin "magically" instilled the clinical "take no shit from bullies" attitude which I had previously only read about.

That's when I also learned that everybody who can't tolerate assertive behavior (at least in my experience) is actually malfunctioning in some way, usually with a brain disease like OCD or afflicted with major cognitive distortions. Those who are not mentally impaired can readily adapt to assertive behavior.

I have AD/HD, and with the distractibility this condition entails, assertiveness skills are essential, but without those skills, people with ruthlessly exploit this distractibility for their own purposes. My elementary school principal father was by far the biggest offender in my life in this respect, somebody who should have been teaching me assertiveness, but instead exploited my distractibility. (All my teachers also fucked up stupidly and completely, always assigning me desks in the very back of the classrooms behind everybody else, instead of at the very front of the classes, where I needed to be in order to never be distracted. After getting seated in the front of the class establishes the pattern of paying attention and not being sidetracked by any distraction, assertive behavior can develop as a lifelong consequence.)

Concerning my father, he was born with rickets, and recent research is revealing that rickets does compromise and impair neurological development. With or without his neurological wiring, he always would have been evil towards me, but cognitive impairments like oppositional defiant disorder explain much about why he continually does the opposite of what the instructions he reads tell him to do.

BDSM entails a potent sense of helplessness as an element. During the brief interval I was originally on Neurontin, that particular fetish in me dissolved, replaced instead by a sense of naturalized empowerment. That feeling of assertive strength has never been recaptured in all my subsequent uses of gabapentin (a versatile medication I currently use as a sleep aid and to manage the pain of bone spurs in my neck, spine and heels).

 

[Disappointered]

Why is this in the recovery section

It does seem comical but I put it in this section so as not to make bdsm fans feel like I was denying anything positive about it. As I mentioned above, recent literature claims that people involved in this lifestyle are actually healthier and happier than the rest of the population, so I'm sure some people could/do use it to potentially recover from suicidality.

 

[NightmareTour]

About you having been taught that assertiveness is bad, I was groomed and cultivated all my life towards this belief and attitude, then I read and researched a series of classical books on assertiveness training during one summer, but was not able to implement the principals against the pattern which had already been chiseled into my life.

However, five years after that research, at the suggestion of a manager of mine who is bipolar, I tried Neurontin, and that first experience with Neurontin "magically" instilled the clinical "take no shit from bullies" attitude which I had previously only read about.

That's when I also learned that everybody who can't tolerate assertive behavior (at least in my experience) is actually malfunctioning in some way, usually with a brain disease like OCD or afflicted with major cognitive distortions. Those who are not mentally impaired can readily adapt to assertive behavior.

I have AD/HD, and with the distractibility this condition entails, assertiveness skills are essential, but without those skills, people with ruthlessly exploit this distractibility for their own purposes. My elementary school principal father was by far the biggest offender in my life in this respect, somebody who should have been teaching me assertiveness, but instead exploited my distractibility. (All my teachers also fucked up stupidly and completely, always assigning me desks in the very back of the classrooms behind everybody else, instead of at the very front of the classes, where I needed to be in order to never be distracted. After getting seated in the front of the class establishes the pattern of paying attention and not being sidetracked by any distraction, assertive behavior can develop as a lifelong consequence.)

Concerning my father, he was born with rickets, and recent research is revealing that rickets does compromise and impair neurological development. With or without his neurological wiring, he always would have been evil towards me, but cognitive impairments like oppositional defiant disorder explain much about why he continually does the opposite of what the instructions he reads tell him to do.

BDSM entails a potent sense of helplessness as an element. During the brief interval I was originally on Neurontin, that particular fetish in me dissolved, replaced instead by a sense of naturalized empowerment. That feeling of assertive strength has never been recaptured in all my subsequent uses of gabapentin (a versatile medication I currently use as a sleep aid and to manage the pain of bone spurs in my neck, spine and heels).

I'll give that a look, knowing the UK though it'll be really hard to get a prescription for something like that. A lot of my problems are to do with c-ptsd though.

I don't think I explained well enough though, it's not the submissive, helpless side that i would find beneficial, it's having a space where it's already defined that it's okay, even encouraged for me to be assertive, so it's not a bad thing. It helps a lot with confidence in general.

 

[Gnip]

I'll give that a look, knowing the UK though it'll be really hard to get a prescription for something like that. A lot of my problems are to do with c-ptsd though.

I don't think I explained well enough though, it's not the submissive, helpless side that i would find beneficial, it's having a space where it's already defined that it's okay, even encouraged for me to be assertive, so it's not a bad thing. It helps a lot with confidence in general.

Medication responses like that are also highly individualistic, so it's also unlikely you'll respond as I did to Neurontin. I only had that assertive response the first time I was on it, then never again. But it gave me a clinical experience of what textbook assertiveness is, just as 150 mg Ritalin briefly gave me focus with AD/HD, and Prozac gave me an experience of full relief from Major Depressive Disorder.

The UK's NHS constantly comes across to me as a hellish system for patients, and somewhat regressive. The local system I receive my health care from in the dreary northeastern US is lacking in some serious areas (it seems like all the biofeedback therapists are located in my native state of Florida), but I have been able to run the full gamut of medications available to try for my issues, and medications are prescribed freely thanks to government programs like Medicare D. (Big Pharma is actually the great hero of my life, as medications have sometimes succeeded where bullshit like psychoquackery is what originally destroyed my life - psychologists and professional counselors have no right to exist, only prescribing psychiatrists, clinical hypnotists and biofeedback therapists who actually teach coping skills. And the only competent sex therapists are prostitutes.)