Azide prep

[AllThePsychMeds]

The chemistry: 10 g sodium azide into municipal tap water for a total volume of about 35 mL. The solution is slightly endothermic. The bottom of my cheap PETE cup bowed but held. The sodium azide is completely dissolved at this concentration, and the final liquid is clear. A 1:1 solution will not fully dissolve. Due to the notable lack of exploded houses on your nightly news, you can rest assured that all went well. I prepared the solution indoors and with gloves on. I back-filled a 30 mL (needle-less) luer-loc syringe to about 31 mL. I went outside to prime the syringe, so the excess liquid would ended up in an obscure corner of the garden. The plastic stopper cap was replaced. If all goes as planned, the syringe will be used to push the fluid in through existing IV line tubing. No metal will contact the azide. I'm not overly concerned with sterility because I don't plan to store this for long and I plan to be dead. If neither happens, I have plenty more sodium azide. All the waste was dried with a paper towel, placed in a PTFE zip-lock bag, double-bagged in a grocery store bag, and placed in the regular household trash.

Why so much sodium azide? There's so little information out there. I don't trust most reports. Since I'm bypassing the whole vomiting problem, why not? The biggest issue for me is the pH of the solution.

I had thought I wanted to wait until my next rituxan infusion, in the summer, because they take hours and hours. I honestly don't know if I can deal with everything. My family has been paying for regular ketamine infusions. They work for a very short time, and then I'm back to this. It's really taxing.

I have a ketamine infusion coming up. The clinic is small and has only basic first-aid stuff. The nurse sometimes stays until I get woozy. Other times, she leaves for a few minutes. It'll be about chances. I was stone-cold sober the entire time during the last infusion. It did nothing. The necessary action would be to retrieve the syringe from my bag, remove the cap, press and twist hard into the second port on the IV tubing, and steadily depress the plunger over the course of about 15-20 seconds. There is no doubt at all that it will sting like hell. The vein will be irritated and visibly redden on my skin. The lights in the ketamine room are dimmed, so this will probably go unnoticed.

My best access is my right AC. Asking the nurse to use my left might be an alarm for her that something isn't right. I also feel a bit guilty. This nurse is the sweetest person in the world. What's really holding me back is trying to CTB on her watch, because she's one of the only nurses I've ever met who actually does care.

My psych told me she has no more drugs for me to try. My talk therapist is nice, but the session is not different than ranting on Twitter.

Maybe, maybe... who knows. I do feel comfort in having this prepped syringe under the bathroom sink.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

That is one heck of a plan! SA is rarely discussed on this forum. I cannot access it in my country or would have considered. There are no antidotes. Yes, that is sad about the nurse. Perhaps you could leave her a thank you/apology note, and sit on it right before dosing so that it could be found when your body is moved?

I wish for you success and the most peaceful exit possible. You tried everything you could, I'm sorry nothing brought you the help you needed.

 

[UpandDownPrincess]

Your plan reminds me of an old movie, called Experiment Alcatraz. (I love cold war and nuclear holocaust movies. I'm weird.)

In the relevant part, a nurse leaves a scissor on a patient's bed and he uses it to kill another patient when he finds it a bit later.

She is found responsible and is required to resign her commission.

I would hate for your nurse to have something like that happen.

I wish I could come up with another plan. Can you pinch a syringe and bit of tubing to use another time? Do you have a safe injection site near where you are? I apologize, I can't remember your physical situation. I'll keep thinking, anyway.

 

[AllThePsychMeds]

Your plan reminds me of an old movie, called Experiment Alcatraz. (I love cold war and nuclear holocaust movies. I'm weird.)

In the relevant part, a nurse leaves a scissor on a patient's bed and he uses it to kill another patient when he finds it a bit later.

She is found responsible and is required to resign her commission.

I would hate for your nurse to have something like that happen.

I wish I could come up with another plan. Can you pinch a syringe and bit of tubing to use another time? Do you have a safe injection site near where you are? I apologize, I can't remember your physical situation. I'll keep thinking, anyway.

Good point. I'll have a signed note on me that absolves her.

It's a bit more complicated than managing an injection. Sodium aside reacts violently to metal. I can't inject it with a standard needle. IVs are placed with a needle that leaves a plastic cannula in place.

I can legally buy an IV kit over the internet. The problem is putting in the IV. Even most doctors and nurses can't do it on themselves because of the way you need to grip the skin. Inserting the needle and removing it whilst stabilizing the cannula before taping it in place is a two hand job. I need to take advantage of a time during which I already have an IV.

I don't live in a hospital. I might have grown up in one.

 

[Otter]

I'm not familiar with this method at all. But why couldn't you just add it to the bag of ketamine?(while shes out of the room)
Also, have you studied to see how the ketamine reacts with that?
Also, how much a danger is there for the nurse? Is it possible it can blow up or anything?

 

[AllThePsychMeds]

I'm not familiar with this method at all. But why couldn't you just add it to the bag of ketamine?(while shes out of the room)
Also, have you studied to see how the ketamine reacts with that?
Also, how much a danger is there for the nurse? Is it possible it can blow up or anything?

This isn't really a method so much as logic about how to adulterate your IV. You could apply it just as easily to another substance.

Dosing a bag requires a metal needle to be inserted through the medication port on the bag. Once the bag is spiked (as in, attached to the tubing) and the tubing is running through the automated pump, I can't mess with that end very easily. The pump makes a loud beeping whenever it detects stoppage or air. IV bags are sealed and a vacuum is created as the bag empties. Trying to somehow poke a hole in the bag with a sharp plastic 'needle' would result in something looking very wrong to the nurse and probably cause the pump to throw an error. Moreover, the pump is set to drip X mL over Y time. The ketamine IV pump is set to 500 mL / 50 min. A mysterious extra 30 mL in the bag would be obvious because the bag should be collapsed in on itself by the action of the pump.

I have no idea how they'd interact. If anything, I think it would be a bit synergistic as ketamine depresses the CNS. The nurse is not in any danger. No precautions would be needed until autopsy. I would never choose a method that would bring unreasonable risk to others.

 

[AllThePsychMeds]

I had the chance (I hid the syringe in my hoodie) and attaching the syringe into the second port took zero pressure and required little coordination. I had a surge of adrenaline and decided not to depress the plunger. My original timeline wasn't until the summer, and I think part of me still wants to give things until then. I'm content with the proof of viability.

 

[ClonesAnnoyMe]

Hey man, if you don't mind me asking why are you planning to ctb?

Also not to guilt trip you but it has to be said. You need a more responsible plan, also don't you fear about becoming a vegetable and surviving?

 

[AllThePsychMeds]

Hey man, if you don't mind me asking why are you planning to ctb?

Also not to guilt trip you but it has to be said. You need a more responsible plan, also don't you fear about becoming a vegetable and surviving?

The PPH oral lethal recommendation for SA is 2g. This is 10 g by IV. Most studies show an LD50 of ~70 mg/kg in rats. I am a small-to-average sized woman.

I could just as easily use SN—and have it available—but SN has an antidote. Since I would already be in a medical setting, something with a readily available antidote doesn't seem like a logical choice.

The why is mental health related.

What needs to be "more reasonable" with this plan? Your situation might be that you aren't regularly hooked up to an IV. That isn't the case for me.

 

[UpandDownPrincess]

AllThePsychMeds-

I have to admit, I'm flummoxed. I've seen tons of IVs placed and I can't figure another way other than what you've suggested.

I know the metal needle is an issue; why haven't we invented another substance by now? I bet patients would like it better, too.

I'm glad you decided to wait. You seemed much more sure about the summer timeline than when you posted just a couple of days ago.

Welcome back!

 

[someonewillhelpme]

Has anyone actually tried dissolving azide in water? What has your experience been? What kind of water did you use? I noticed elsewhere, there was a suggestion to dissolve azide in distilled water. But this thread mentioned municpal tap water. Wouldn't there be minerals in municipal tap water which can cause azide to explode?
Has anyone actually tried dissolving azide in water? What has your experience been? What kind of water did you use? I noticed elsewhere, there was a suggestion to dissolve azide in distilled water. But this thread mentioned municpal tap water. Wouldn't there be minerals in municipal tap water which can cause azide to explode?

 

[Living sucks]

Has anyone actually tried dissolving azide in water? What has your experience been? What kind of water did you use? I noticed elsewhere, there was a suggestion to dissolve azide in distilled water. But this thread mentioned municpal tap water. Wouldn't there be minerals in municipal tap water which can cause azide to explode?
Has anyone actually tried dissolving azide in water? What has your experience been? What kind of water did you use? I noticed elsewhere, there was a suggestion to dissolve azide in distilled water. But this thread mentioned municpal tap water. Wouldn't there be minerals in municipal tap water which can cause azide to explode?

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/sodium-azide-megathread.7465

Please see the resource compilation section for all megathreads so you can research more methods if interested.

 

[Nohopeinhell]

I know it can't be in contact with metal at all but what if they try to revive you using a defibrillator? Or if she calls a doctor and then they inject adrenaline or try to put some sort of line in you? It can still be risky for them surely.

 

[Living sucks]

I know it can't be in contact with metal at all but what if they try to revive you using a defibrillator? Or if she calls a doctor and then they inject adrenaline or try to put some sort of line in you? It can still be risky for them surely.

I believe I read they treat SA poisoning with SN..
but yes if they know your poisoned with SA it's treated as a hazard . Leave a note so emergency workers know

 

[AllThePsychMeds]

Has anyone actually tried dissolving azide in water? What has your experience been? What kind of water did you use? I noticed elsewhere, there was a suggestion to dissolve azide in distilled water. But this thread mentioned municpal tap water. Wouldn't there be minerals in municipal tap water which can cause azide to explode?
Has anyone actually tried dissolving azide in water? What has your experience been? What kind of water did you use? I noticed elsewhere, there was a suggestion to dissolve azide in distilled water. But this thread mentioned municpal tap water. Wouldn't there be minerals in municipal tap water which can cause azide to explode?

OP here.

I used municipal tap water. My house has copper piping. Everything was fine. Non-chemists/non-biochemists are too jumpy. You probably should be. However, I have extensive postgraduate experience handling more dangerous stuff than this. If dealing with something like SA isn't squarely within your comfort zone, don't. Also don't act shocked that some people are competent at handling hazardous materials, even at home.

I still have the loaded syringe from the earlier post. It's under my bathroom sink. I don't plan to use it. I'll make up a fresh solution at the time. I was just interested in the shelf life. The SA started to crystalize on the plastic cap, so I was kind of fascinated. I'm a scientist, what can I say? No reaction to anything, although it is contained by two plastic barriers. I'll dispose of the solution once the weather warms.

Regarding "put a line in me": that is a prerequisite to this whole method. I need a line in order to inject the SA. If any medicine would be given by IV, the existing line will be used. It is extremely unlikely that an additional IV would be placed. Placing an additional IV would be irrelevant anyways.

Regarding "note so emergency workers know": The problems for emergency workers are 1) gas caused by SA reacting with stomach acid and 2) SA contaminated vomit since exposure to SA is also poisonous. Gastric effects should be minimized because I don't plan to ingest the SA. Nevertheless, vomiting has been reported in all exposure routes. Even during the shortage caused by the COVID-19 situation, I am confident that the infusion ward will have gloves and some sort of facial PPE on hand. Under no circumstances do I want anyone to know that the chemical in question is SA. Under no circumstances do I want anyone else to be harmed. Catch 22. I'm still working on a solution.

Regarding "adrenaline": The overall effect of adrenaline is to increase oxygen perfusion to the body's tissues. This will probably be one of the first measures taken in response to the vital sign changes due to SA injection. Injection of adrenaline will be futile. SA is a mitochondrial toxin. It inhibits oxidative phosphorylation and reduces in ATP production, even in the presence of oxygen, which is the critical molecule required at the end of the electron transport chain. In layman's terms: Adrenaline increases the amount of oxygen in the body's tissues. SA poisoning happens before your body needs to use oxygen. Therefore, SA doesn't care about how much oxygen you're pumping in. However, see next paragraph regarding using adrenaline to counteract hypotension.

Regarding "defibrillation": SA poisoning does result in vital signs which would lead to treatment with defibrillation. In particular, SA causes a drop in blood pressure and tachycardia. Standard protocol is to use adrenaline to increase blood pressure in conjunction with a shock delivered by defibrillation to re-establish a normal heartbeat by reset the normal sinus (cardiac) rhythm. However, SA causes tachycardia centrally rather than due to arrhythmia stemming from a carotid sinus response to critically low blood pressure. The methods by which adrenaline injection combined with defibrillation treat cardiac dysrrhymias have not proven successful in cases acute SA poisoning. It's likely to be attempted anyways.

Regarding "treating SA with SN": Absolutely correct. It is a standard neutralization technique in the laboratory. However, in vitro is not in vivo. SN treatment, in conjunction with a few other chemicals, is standard for cyanide poisoning. Outcomes of SN treatment for SA vary and are highly dependant on dosage and response time. Most attempts are unsuccessful. In general, SN has not proven as an affective in vivo antidote for SA.

I refer you to Chang and Lamm (2003) "Human Health Effects of Sodium Azide Exposure: A Literature Review and Analysis" in the International Journal of Toxicology for many insights. Notable to my intention: the reports of survival by intravenous SA are all related to one incident of inadvertent low dose exposure due to improperly prepared hemodialysis filters. These cases resulted in rapid onset of hypotension, a sign positively correlated with survival. However, high dose is positively correlated with late onset of hypotension and negatively correlated with survival. The method by which SA induces hypotension is not known, so it's difficult to understand the relationships between the onset of hypotension, dosage, and lethality. 100% of SA poisonings associated known with suicidal intent were successful.

TL;DR I present a wall of text full of medical jargon. I've answered and addressed the concerns in this thread l. However, this is my field. I can't give answers that are both succinct, exact, and contain enough background to explain the necessary context without also writing a small booklet. I'm more than happy to answer specific questions, though.

 

[someonewillhelpme]

@Living sucks: Thank you for taking the effort to post the references. I did read through them. But couldn't really tell what kind of water was used. And hence my question.

@Nohopeinhell : Thanks you for the suggestion of keeping away from metal


@AllThePsychMeds: Thank you so much for taking the effort to share your in depth knowledge on this subject. It is much appreciated. Your kind offer to answer specific questions is much appreciated.

Could you please help me understand how you used municipal tap water to mix SA. Is it the case that despite having copper piping in your home, the metal doesn't leach into the water. The reason I ask is I was under the impression that SA explodes if it comes in contact with metal.

Would the distilled water available in Walmart be effective for mixing SA?

How about instead of putting a line, one were to orally consumes it.

What is the lethal dose for a 89-93lb person. Would it be 1g instead of the 2-3g? My concern is whether 2g would cause vomiting. I also have a concern about not taking enough to be fatal? What is the just right amount?

How about the dosage of meto? Would it still be 30g?

I notice Tagamet recommended for SN. Would it not be required for SA as well?

Much appreciated.

Many thanks,

 

[AllThePsychMeds]

Could you please help me understand how you used municipal tap water to mix SA. ... The reason I ask is I was under the impression that SA explodes if it comes in contact with metal.

• There was a small reaction, which I mentioned. The element and state of the metal matters. I think I would bore you if I were to write a chemistry essay.

Would the distilled water available in Walmart be effective for mixing SA?

• It would be perfect and possibly preferable.

I also have a concern about not taking enough to be fatal? What is the just right amount?

• For an oral route? It's hard to say because you will vomit. If you can keep down 6 grams, the chance is good—I'm not guaranteeing anything. There isn't enough evidence.

How about the dosage of meto? Would it still be 30g?

• I have no idea. You will surely need an antiemetic. I can't guess the amount. Certainly, it would not be less than the SN method.

I notice Tagamet recommended for SN. Would it not be required for SA as well?

• I haven't looked into this. I can't answer.

Unlike SN, SA will not cause such immediate coagulation. The ~30% solution I mentioned above has a pKa of around 4, a bit below what should be administered by IV (5-9). For comparison, tomato juice has a similar pKa.

I was closing up some loose ends a few weeks ago. While I could probably withstand the pain, damaging the vein during the process would result in failure.

I have located a clear-net site that will ship IV kits and sterile saline without a doctor's prescription, in defiance of US law. Making up a more pH balanced solution, taking a sedative, and starting the drip is appealing to me. I could be outside, somewhere pleasant in nature.

It is a US supplier and will not ship this product internationally. I have not yet made an order. The site appears to be a reputable supplier of first aid and medical kits for a range of potentially extreme circumstances.

 

[Aap]

I'm not quite sure I understand the logic here and why IV is so important to use vs PO. Please keep in mind, there are a variety of mechanisms for vomitting, and IV delivery in no way guarantees vomit free. Likewise, an autopsy and toxicology tests will identify SA, either via blood, residue in the bag, residue in the syringe, cup, stomach, etc.

IV access could present issues, as you note. I understand the desire not to harm any rescue personnel, but this can be resolved with a simple note and PPE, the same as an h2s or HCN suicide. I don't quite understand why the IV route is the fixation. Any drip likely would eliminate any speed advantage of IV vs PO on an empty stomach.

 

[AllThePsychMeds]

I'm not quite sure I understand the logic here and why IV is so important to use vs PO. Please keep in mind, there are a variety of mechanisms for vomitting, and IV delivery in no way guarantees vomit free. Likewise, an autopsy and toxicology tests will identify SA, either via blood, residue in the bag, residue in the syringe, cup, stomach, etc.

IV access could present issues, as you note. I understand the desire not to harm any rescue personnel, but this can be resolved with a simple note and PPE, the same as an h2s or HCN suicide. I don't quite understand why the IV route is the fixation. Any drip likely would eliminate any speed advantage of IV vs PO on an empty stomach.

Vomiting after PO reduces the SA in the gastrointestinal tract. Vomiting after IV has no such problem. Additionally, bioavailability by IV is higher. On a personal note, I hate vomiting. If by PO, vomiting is completely assured (and that vomit would be a hazard to first responders). Vomiting after IV is likely, but a 5 or 7 day fast should relegate it to the wretching stage. (Yes, I regularly fast.) I'm on such a soup of All The Psych Meds that the effectivity of any given antiemetic is unknown.

Conversy to what you might think, a slower onset of hypotension is associated with higher mortality. The intensity and rapidity of exposure have not been sufficiently studied in order for me to speculate.

For me, it has never been a slow/fast thing but rather making sure my family wouldn't be the first to find me and would know that there was nothing more to be done. The hospital setting would still be my ideal.

Frankly, an IV is much more within in my comfort zone and has a feeling of life's routine and cycle. So, also personal preference.

 

[Aap]

Well ok then