RememberWhatUCameFor

RememberWhatUCameFor

dont cry for me im already dead
Nov 20, 2018
590
the world is overpopulated and we use more ressources than the world can provide...but still the world population is growing more and more

thus population controll is more than necessary. one example is the one child policy in china..but not only birth are effecting the worldpopulation but also the number of death


the goverment should do the following:


1. give everyone over 21 access to nembutal (ofc a few mechanism should be used to prevent impulsive suicide)

2. give everyone who commits suicide money..yes money that he/she can give to her family...why? because of the reason i named above...if i commit suicide with 23 i use way less ressources than someone who gets 80 year old. its better for the environment and for society.
 
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Nanami

Nanami

Global Mod
Nov 20, 2018
110
But you also won't pay taxes, or contribute to the retirement funds of the currently retired population, so why would the state want to spend more money on you?
Not to mention, people who actually want to live getting forced into suicide so their family receives money.
 
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RememberWhatUCameFor

RememberWhatUCameFor

dont cry for me im already dead
Nov 20, 2018
590
But you also won't pay taxes, or contribute to the retirement funds of the currently retired population, so why would the state want to spend more money on you?
Not to mention, people who actually want to live getting forced into suicide so their family receives money.

retired people get also financial compensation for suicide (less than young people though since - as i already stated - the purpose is related to environment then to economy).
 
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Nanami

Nanami

Global Mod
Nov 20, 2018
110
Really, creating a system like that isn't that easy.
You can't just say 'Incentivize people to kill themselves by rewarding them with money.'
That doesn't work, especially not in the long run and the whole thing would be open to so much abuse and loopholes it's not even funny.

Yes, make assisted suicide more accessible to those who really do want it / need it. But do it in a good and thought out way.
 
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RememberWhatUCameFor

RememberWhatUCameFor

dont cry for me im already dead
Nov 20, 2018
590
Really, creating a system like that isn't that easy.
You can't just say 'Incentivize people to kill themselves by rewarding them with money.'
That doesn't work, especially not in the long run and the whole thing would be open to so much abuse and loopholes it's not even funny.

Yes, make assisted suicide more accessible to those who really do want it / need it. But do it in a good and thought out way.


every system is open for abuse though. could it be that a few greedy relatives would try to convince older or physically/mentally handicaped people to commit suicide? yes, maybe - but all in all the pros would outweight the cons imho

considering the limited ressources on this planet combined with the rapid growth of world population we will probably face a few questions in the future that cant be answered with current western moral and ethic standards anyways


the club of rome already suggested to reward childless women - for not getting children bc more children means more population means more consumption of ressources

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/club-of-rome-report-reward-money-for-childlessness


so why not rewarding people who commit suicide?
 
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Angst Filled Fuck Up

Angst Filled Fuck Up

Visionary
Sep 9, 2018
2,926
I think suicide should be a last resort option, but one that is condoned, and properly implemented/regulated. It's a taboo topic, but as much as pro-lifers might want to close their eyes and pretend it doesn't happen, people are going to ctb anyway. You can be blind to it, but you're living in a fantasy world if you act like this stuff doesn't happen. It's a bit like drug use, or the sex industry. Bringing these things out of the shadows and decriminalizing them helps make it all safer.

There doesn't need to be any additional type of incentive, financial or otherwise, but at least allow people to exit with relative certainty and comfort.

I shouldn't have to jump through a million hoops to leave a garbage life with a wrecked body and tired mind. Even then, I'm invariably playing with fire and risking things like permanent brain damage. I shouldn't have to worry about that - not on top of all the bad things that have plagued me in my life so far.
 
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Misanthrope

Misanthrope

Mage
Oct 23, 2018
557
This would be an extremely bad idea for a host of reasons. It wouldn't even be a solution to world population. Simply because many countries and cultures have ideological mandates to continue creating offspring or deeply held moral stances on suicide. Even if you reduce the population that won't do much to slow the exploitation of the earth. Because it is simply profitable to do so. With automation likely used to fill the gaps in any labor shortages. The suicidal are also a small drop in the ocean. When compared to the population as a whole. I am sure the rates of suicide would increase with your solution but I doubt it would outstrip global births and all the various fertility related sciences that exist.

Overpopulation will sort itself out eventuality. The scarcity of resources produces conflict and people will die in their droves as a result from shortages and inevitable wars. This scenario has played out many times in multiple cultures throughout history. The only difference is this will be global and the environment will increasingly be hostile for human life.

I find it disturbing though you bring up China's one-child policy. You ever looked into it and the atrocities it has led to? The only reason it stuck around so long was there was financial incentive to maintain it regardless of the proven horror. That is the problem with a financial incentive, it influences questionable behaviour and allows it to entrench itself. In China's case, the deaths of already birthed babies and forcible abortions became the result.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7d82d6969d9c

1. give everyone over 21 access to Nembutal (ofc a few mechanism should be used to prevent impulsive suicide)

Why the arbitrary age of 21? What is your reasoning for that? Seems a bit ageist to me. Maybe the youth should band together and sue the government on the grounds of discrimination in this brave new world?

Congratulations you have also now just flooded the world with easily accessible death in the age of the tide pod challenge. I mean if you want to reduce the western population further you could maybe create a Nembutal challenge with a cash prize for everyone who survives a lethal dose...

People accidentally die from exposure to all manner of things that is why the most deadly things are carefully regulated. Would there be laws surrounding how you store the Nembutal? What would be the consequences for failing to do so?

What mechanism would you put in place to prevent impulsive suicide?

With such readily accessible death available, murder would become childs play! Don't like someone? That is okay give them some Nembutal and make sure it seems like they left a suicide note. Job done! Now how can law enforcement determine murder from suicide in a climate where deaths such as these are common? Where the source of the mechanism of murder is so readily available? Would they even investigate at all? How could you prosecute and get beyond reasonable doubt?

I guess though this works in favour of reducing the population further. Lots of grudge-bearing people in the world that would happily kill if they felt they could get away with it.

2. give everyone who commits suicide money..yes money that he/she can give to her family...why? because of the reason i named above...if i commit suicide with 23 i use way less resources than someone who gets 80 year old. its better for the environment and for society.

This is so shockingly horrific I am going to use two imaginary conversations as to why.

I am fed up with cleaning up after you. If it's not faeces running down the bed or vomit all over the sheets it's you crying out in pain keeping me up all night. I can't take it anymore. I am tired of looking after you. Government are cutting the support funding that allows me even a few days break from you. I have put my entire damn life on hold for you! I know you run a support group for people in your situation and are working on assistive technology that may not even see the light of the day. But you are so sick I can't see that ever materialising. I mean how could it? You are too stupid to even get your vomit in a bucket. You are a burden to me, and I am exhausted. Looking at you makes me feel nothing but disgust and embarrassment wondering where my life went wrong. You need to face up to it. You are a waste of life on gods green earth. Some people have no business being alive in the first place. I just want to be free, don't I deserve that much considering all I have done for you? Please give me the freedom I want. Let me get the Nembutal for you. It would also help towards some of my debts that looking after you caused. You honestly can't like living like this?


Hi Mum, you have been in the home a while now. You being here though is eating into my inheritance. Each day you are here more of my future financial security dwindles. Things have been hard of late, Roger lost his job. Jack also needs some new shoes for school. You have had your life, and I am glad of that but I would like to have mine. Don't worry mum I am sure they have antiques roadshow in heaven. Just think no more coughing fits or aches and pains when getting up. Your friends that have left this world will be there waiting for you all smiles. It also helps Roger and I out of a bind. It is an easy enough process. I will help you. They say it is painless, peaceful even. You want the best for me, don't you? Here is the pamphlet. Let me know what you want to decide.


If you think those two above conversations are absurd, you likely have not worked alongside the disabled and elderly and witnessed first hand the ferocity of emotional manipulation and coercion used against them. It is for that reason I am entirely opposed to your proposed solution. Which solves nothing and produces more problems.

Lastly, I don't trust my own government to legislate to effectively fill potholes. Giving them power over the mechanisms of death seems like a really bad idea currently.
 
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[NoName]

[NoName]

Student
Nov 15, 2018
146
the world is overpopulated and we use more ressources than the world can provide...but still the world population is growing more and more

thus population controll is more than necessary. one example is the one child policy in china..but not only birth are effecting the worldpopulation but also the number of death


the goverment should do the following:


1. give everyone over 21 access to nembutal (ofc a few mechanism should be used to prevent impulsive suicide)

2. give everyone who commits suicide money..yes money that he/she can give to her family...why? because of the reason i named above...if i commit suicide with 23 i use way less ressources than someone who gets 80 year old. its better for the environment and for society.

Overpopulation isn't the problem, poor distribution of resources is the problem.
 
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RememberWhatUCameFor

RememberWhatUCameFor

dont cry for me im already dead
Nov 20, 2018
590
@Misanthrope

The suicidal are also a small drop in the ocean. When compared to the population as a whole. I am sure the rates of suicide would increase with your solution but I doubt it would outstrip global births and all the various fertility related sciences that exist.

who said one one measure is the solution for everything? especially in view of a multicausal complex problem like world population? however combined with other measurements (like the suggestion of clube of rome, forced or promoted sterilisation like in india in the 70s, one child policy like in china) it can be indeed effective. ofc soft method that also lower birth rates (like strengthen of women rights, free and easy access to all forms of birth controll, education, etc) should be promoted too.

Overpopulation will sort itself out eventuality. The scarcity of resources produces conflict and people will die in their droves as a result from shortages and inevitable wars. This scenario has played out many times in multiple cultures throughout history. The only difference is this will be global and the environment will increasingly be hostile for human life

which will be way more cruel than a few relatives who abuse the system to get rid of some old demented people or a forced one child policy.

how can you call a forced one child policy cruel and anmoralic when it eventually helps to prevent sth way more cruel?

chinas one child policy comes with some downsides like lack of women and some demographic problems but in the end it was one reason for chinas success.

before they implemented it in the 80s their population doubled to 1 billion in just 30 years - ofc they had to take measurements.

one of the reasons africa is so fucked up is that they cant get their population growth under controll leading to a lot of problems.

With such readily accessible death available, murder would become childs play! Don't like someone? That is okay give them some Nembutal and make sure it seems like they left a suicide note. Job done!

could just aswell buy drugs and claim the did an overdose. countless other methods aswell.

besides lets just say people are not allowed to bring nembutal home, they just allowed to buy it in certified shops and also have to drink it there..problem solved

This is so shockingly horrific I am going to use two imaginary conversations as to why.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senicide

only shocking when you come from a society which is heavily influenced by christian/islamic values...old romans/greeks or innuits wouldnt have a big problem with it..anyways

this problem would also occur if you legalize assisted suicide even without financial rewards and is one of the favorite arguments of pro lifers...so i guess you are against assisted suicide at all? nembutal should be as restricted as it is today?
 
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RememberWhatUCameFor

RememberWhatUCameFor

dont cry for me im already dead
Nov 20, 2018
590
Overpopulation isn't the problem, poor distribution of resources is the problem.


club of rome and a lot of other experts have a other opinion
 
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Misanthrope

Misanthrope

Mage
Oct 23, 2018
557
I was responding to your presented scenario of what the government should do and how that would barely make a dent. You did not include India's sterilisation efforts in your scenario either. Or mention you wanted it to be government policy to also implement the one-child policy. I can only work with what I am given. The name of the one-child policy is also a bit of a misnomer as you can buy your way out of being bound by it and have multiple children regardless if you are willing to soak up the fines or exploit loopholes.

You seem to think it was a success.

https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/handle/10125/3796/api077.pdf?sequence=1

This does not, however, account for the unreported births either that are now coming to light. If you have more up to date analysis and statistics I would be interested.

India's forced sterilisation efforts are another contentious one resulting in further atrocities. The sterilisation came out of corrupt politics, it certainly was not the will of the people. Due to unsanitary conditions, many people needlessly died and those corpses were covered up by media censorship.

There are better methods of reducing birth rates. That don't involve your government violating your human rights, kicking your door in and forcing unwanted medical procedures on you, disregarding your personal choices for some apparent greater good. I find it absolutely fascinating you endorse that considering the site we are on.

Better methods consist of education and lifting people out of poverty. The correlation between reduced poverty and lower fertility rates is well established. You can examine in detail why that turns out to be the case here.

https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate

Overpopulation isn't the problem, poor distribution of resources is the problem.

Like noname says. The problems of Africa are compounded by the poor distribution of resources. Without resources how can they grow and develop? Thus reducing fertility rates as a natural byproduct of improved living standards and education?

how can you call a forced one-child policy cruel and anmoralic when it eventually helps to prevent sth way more cruel?

Easily. The causality of the environment turning against us, of shortages and famine. Is not consciously cruel. You can't argue with a hurricane and point out how damaging it is in the hopes it changes its behaviour. It has no empathy to begin with. Nor does soil depletion or acidification of the oceans. We are simply reaping what we have sown.

In contrast, a one-child policy would have humans behind it. That are capable of cruelty and disregarding suffering in favour of ideology kept in place by financial incentive regardless of the long-term damage. As has already been demonstrated by China and its condemned human rights violations. Which is a model you want to apply to the rest of the world! Would it have been more cruel to not enact such a policy? We can never know. I am not sure how you can measure such things. How do you determine what is more cruel in the first place? What measure would you use?

To enforce such a policy globally you would need some sort of force capable of enacting this law. A law that can't be enforced is about as effective as Facebook petition banning meat. There are plenty of countries that would simply reject the policy for various reasons. Those countries that believe in democracy would want to put it to a vote. If their populace decides against it. Any attempt to enforce it by some outside force would be seen as an attack on democracy. Attacking democracy is a recipe for war. Other countries would reject it outright on faith-based grounds. Trying to force the issue would be seen as an attack on faith. Again resulting in wars. Wars lead to greater shortages and even more aggressive exploitation of earth's resources. Further exacerbating the very problem you seem to view as more cruel in the first place. You would just be adding fuel to an already existing fire.

This would only work in an idealised society comprised of countries that can universally agree on something and act on it across the majority of cultures. Something we need in response to anthropogenic climate change as it is, but isn't happening.

Since that has never happened in the entire span of human history, goes against all the psychology I know of in regards to tribalism, self-invested agendas and sociology. It just seems like wishful thinking that takes us away from pursuing meaningful solutions. Preferably ones that don't have the effect of violating choice. Causing infanticide, devaluing of the disabled, and females, as well as fatal medical complications and growth in child trafficking. All things you are downplaying.


could just as well buy drugs and claim the did an overdose. countless other methods as well.

Precisely so it would add to an already existing problem. Currently, I can find very little info on murders using Nembutal. But I suspect if it was made as readily accessible as your scenario suggests that would change.
 
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Misanthrope

Misanthrope

Mage
Oct 23, 2018
557
besides lets just say people are not allowed to bring Nembutal home, they just allowed to buy it in certified shops and also have to drink it there..problem solved.

Care to explore this in greater detail? Tell me about this shop. How do you imagine it operating? How does a shop get certified? What does being certified mean? Does the certification process define who you can sell to? Who gets access to the product? What criteria is used? If a person comes in drunk or high would they be barred from taking it at that time? Does it require any input from a physician? What things would be in place to prevent impulsive suicide as you suggested before? What response would there be to someone who takes it and then panics and wishes they hadn't? Would the shop owner need to be medically trained in case of this eventuality? Would they need any psychology credentials? Any sort of vetting process? Would they at all enquire as to the clients reasoning and if they were there of their of their own free will? What would happen if a would-be buyer tells the shop owner that they need to die because the angel Metatron told them if he doesn't, the sun won't rise tomorrow and like Jesus, he must sacrifice himself as means to save others? What if someone comes in who is pregnant? If people are not allowed to take Nembutal home and must drink it in the shop. What does that mean for the bedbound who if they move will exacerbate their condition? Does it do deliveries to the housebound? How much help is the shop owner allowed to give to people incapable of carrying out the act themselves? Does there need to be witnesses?

only shocking when you come from a society which is heavily influenced by Christian/islamic values...old romans/greeks or innuits wouldnt have a big problem with it..anyways

Well using the source you presented it seems it was pretty rare, more alluded to in myths and stories that don't have much in the way of substantive evidence. Some of the faith-based reasoning for the practice meant viewing the elderly as being possessed by an evil spirit. So in abandoning them, they are abandoning an evil spirit not the person they love. Can't say I agree with human sacrifice of seventy-year-olds to unproven deities either. I am not sure what point you are trying to make with this source? Seems irrational and mostly unsubstantiated. A throwback to an uninformed era.

If you are so convinced though that stabbing your grandmother to death, before setting them on fire is not shocking you should go out and create a census and record the responses. Asking that very question. Maybe I am just weird and think it is wrong to stab and kill people that don't want to be stabbed and killed because they are old...

this problem would also occur if you legalize assisted suicide even without financial rewards and is one of the favourite arguments of pro-lifers...

Societal coercion and the devaluing of life is one of the more grounded arguments pro-lifers make. However, I don't arrive at the same absolutist conclusion they do. I think with proper safeguarding you could mitigate a lot of coercion. However, your above scenario would simply add fuel to the fire by adding financial incentive and seems to have next to no oversight whatsoever.

I am very much for informed consent and rational choices. Dignity in dying, and the minimising of trauma for the person and all others involved. The complexity though comes in defining what is rational when it comes to the suicidal and what you do about people who can't give consent, for whatever reason, when it is obvious they are in pain. I am not versed in medical ethics and don't envy the position those who are, find themselves in.

so i guess you are against assisted suicide at all?

That is a bit presumptuous, isn't it?

It is a complicated question. It would depend on how you are asking it. If you were asking it as a philosophical question you would get an answer you would likely agree with, but it is predicated on living in an ideal world that can safeguard effectively. If you are asking it from a realist perspective in relation to my own country and how the right to die would manifest. I doubt you would like my answer. However, that answer comes not from a thought experiment but being around while the Liverpool care pathway was active. It was rife with its own scandals and failings.

A detailed analysis can be found here.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5963294/

What I take away from that is caution and a greater future demand for more emphasis on informed consent, more robust safeguards, and some form of independent oversight. I respect what the LCP was trying to do but its implementation was disastrous. I can't just ignore that because it is convenient to my suicidal mind to do so.

You may be okay with violations of consent, involuntary harm, and death as acceptable collateral, but I am not. That is where we significantly differ.
 
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Johnnythefox

Johnnythefox

Que sera sera
Nov 11, 2018
3,129
@Misanthrope
[What would happen if a would-be buyer tells the shop owner that they need to die because the angel Metatron told them if he doesn't, the sun won't rise tomorrow and like Jesus, he must sacrifice himself as means to save others?]

I must admit that this made me laugh out loud! As did some other parts.

I would not like to get into an argument with you as I would definitely not win!
I only hope that you don't choose to dissect any of my posts with the same vigour.
:II
 
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