[Article] Why the criminal justice system (compared to the mental health system) is the lesser of two carceral systems

[TAW122]

Disclaimer: Before I begin, I want to state that I don't support either system as they are both carceral in nature and both have devastating consequences for those who end up in either of them. These consequences include, but are not limited to the loss of freedom, civil liberties, and many other social, financial, legal, and/or professional consequences. While I have written threads on this as well as expressed my stance, this article briefly touches on it, but also reiterates my previous stance and explain more in depth of my reasoning and analysis of my stance. Some of the threads or quotes may have been buried or no longer available on SaSu (after it got purged or deleted from years ago), but the general idea and whatever I could scour as references in this thread I will include or link to. Furthermore, if I were to try to find every thread, it would be too exhaustive for me, and besides that, it would be redundant.

With that said, this thread will explain and focus on why I think those who end up in the criminal justice system (will refer to it as CJ in this thread) are 'slightly' better off than those who are in the mental health system, especially with regards and respect to civil rights, and bodily autonomy. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that those who end up in the CJ system with problems and troubles are having an easier time, but between the two carceral systems, the CJ system is the lesser of the two evils and I will explain why in this thread.

The most important distinction between both carceral systems is that in one of them, you lose your credibility, anything you say is automatically, by default, invalidated and deemed unreliable testimony or word (the mental health system – once you are branded or labeled as mentally unwell, ill, or irrational, you effectively have little to no defense against such claims or (almost) anything that happens to you). This effectively renders one just about completely defenseless and at the mercy of the system and the people within that system. However, for the CJ system, at least there are much more protections, even if one does get a bad reputation or face a lot of stigma and social consequences. These include: due process, right to a lawyer, innocent (from a legal standpoint – not public standpoint per se!) until proven guilty, recourse for false imprisonment, and many other legal remedies. There are simply (almost) none for the mental health system and far more insulting is that even testimony and stories from victims of psychiatric harm are easily invalidated by the public. There is simply almost no recourse! Now of course, maybe things are slowly changing and more people are coming to their senses and becoming more skeptical of the psychiatric system, but that may take decades or much longer, though I digress.

Additional distinctions include the aftermath of the CJ system, there are organizations that seek justice (especially for the ones who are falsely convicted and later exonerated) such as The Innocence Project, Exoneration Project, Equal Justice Initiative to name a few and even in the eyes of the public, there are some supports for those kinds of false convicts. Legally speaking, there may even be civil awards (usually monetary though) for the wrongly accused and incarcerated. But for the psychiatric system and mental health system, almost none at all. Worse yet, even the public perception is automatically mental health system did nothing wrong and the person who was "wrongly" incarcerated deserved it. In cases like these, it should make one be very angry and out in the streets raising hell, but I digress.

While there are organizations that stick up for those who are harmed by the psychiatric industry and mental health system such as the Citizens Commission for Human Rights, MindFreedomInternational, Anti Psychiatry Coalition, to name a few, they are often far and few, and still far from mainstream. In fact, they even suffer backlash from the public for sticking up for the ones who are wrongly incarcerated and treated. There are also no legal recourse for those who are harmed or wronged by them. The automatic presumption that those who are in those carceral systems deserved it or are 'helped' because they needed it is not only presumptuous, ignorant, but also very insulting towards those who are genuinely harmed and such. The CJ system itself is even pro-psychiatry and supports the carceral system itself, which is why the patients who have been mistreated or wronged by said mental health system would also have a hard time for any justice at all! In present day, we have yet to reach a point in society or have enough social and legal institutions that counter (or at least serves as a third part, a check and balance) towards the psychiatric system and mental health system.

In the end, these people who are in the mental health system not only suffer greatly, but have fewer options for recourse than those who are in the CJ system. While both person(s) outcomes are similar and often abysmal in the end, the one who was wronged in the CJ system at least have a slightly better chance of justice and recourse than those who are in the mental health system. This is because in the criminal justice system, at least people recognize the flaws within it, the injustices and horrible treatment of people (especially the innocent or wrongfully convicted). As usual, I'm not going get into all the semantics and pedantic terminologies of such as that detracts from this article and I have already discussed in other threads already without being redundant. I have listed some threads as references that delve into some of the points I've discussed in this article. Finally, this is not to glorify either system as both are carceral and very damaging to a person's existence among original problems and challenges that are a part of sentience by default.

Some older threads for reference:

"Why I would rather live in a time where CTB was actually criminalized"

"How and why psych holds (even temporary ones) are considered "legalized criminality"

"CTB while not illegal, is treated like 'a crime'"

 

[N3UR0T1C]

I completely agree with this. My opinion has always been that the courts have made the gravest of errors in allowing these blatant constitutional violations (US) when it comes to civil commitment and especially involuntary holds.

 

[Not A Fan]

As someone who has been saddled with the lifelong burden of a criminal record in the united states, I enjoyed reading your thoughts on this. I've not been held in a mental institution (we barely even have them in the USA) so I can't compare. But this definitely got me thinking. They can each be pretty nightmarish, depending on the specifics. I'm lucky to have gotten through it without any major incidents. Nevertheless it is an experience that can really change you. I find I am a lot more empathetic than the average citizen towards incarcerated people.

 

[TAW122]

I completely agree with this. My opinion has always been that the courts have made the gravest of errors in allowing these blatant constitutional violations (US) when it comes to civil commitment and especially involuntary holds.

Indeed, it is as though the legal system simply turns a blind eye to civil commitment like "sorry, not a part of the legal procedure or process" and then suddenly civil rights just gets trampled on and violated.

As someone who has been saddled with the lifelong burden of a criminal record in the united states, I enjoyed reading your thoughts on this. I've not been held in a mental institution (we barely even have them in the USA) so I can't compare. But this definitely got me thinking. They can each be pretty nightmarish, depending on the specifics. I'm lucky to have gotten through it without any major incidents. Nevertheless it is an experience that can really change you. I find I am a lot more empathetic than the average citizen towards incarcerated people.

Thanks for your feedback and support. I personally have never been involved in either carceral systems and I hope I never do in my lifetime. I read a lot of stories of people who have been in those systems, done my homework and research due to my deep interest in such topics, and of course, hear about people talk about it from time to time IRL (when I was in college, after college, and more).

 

[Cinnamorolls]

So true. Prisoners get to sleep on real mattresses with sheets, can watch tv or go outside for a limited amount of time, and they also have the privilege of being separated by gender. Meanwhile victims of involuntary holds in psych hospitals have to sleep on a plastic mattress with no sheets, cannot have any media, cannot go outside, and worst of all are forced to stay in mixed-gender units. Can you imagine being a woman who experienced domestic violence or rape and being suicidal because of that, then you're locked up in a psych ward that is chock full of strange men all around you?

Involuntary holds are just evil all around. Punishing someone worse than actual criminals, treating them as less than animals, all just because they are depressed.

 

[Not A Fan]

So true. Prisoners get to sleep on real mattresses with sheets, can watch tv or go outside for a limited amount of time, and they also have the privilege of being separated by gender. Meanwhile victims of involuntary holds in psych hospitals have to sleep on a plastic mattress with no sheets, cannot have any media, cannot go outside, and worst of all are forced to stay in mixed-gender units. Can you imagine being a woman who experienced domestic violence or rape and being suicidal because of that, then you're locked up in a psych ward that is chock full of strange men all around you?

Involuntary holds are just evil all around. Punishing someone worse than actual criminals, treating them as less than animals, all just because they are depressed.

When I was in LA county men's jail, they didn't have bedding. Just metal flat bunks. We asked for sheets, they said "maybe later," but it never happened. We were also denied access to showers. No books. No newspapers. I would rather stare at the wall than watch TV, but they don't have TVs either. We were not allowed outside of our cells, let alone outdoors. The only time I ever saw the sun was when they loaded us onto buses to go to court. I had not been convicted of anything. My crime was carrying a neodymium magnet. After 1 week I was released at court but people fighting bigger charges or awaiting trial were being held under the same conditions indefinitely.

Only once you are convicted of a serious crime, do you get the privilege of going to prison. In California, many inmates have to serve their full prison sentences in county jails due to overcrowding. Thus lesser criminals (drug dealers, shoplifters...) are subject to far worse conditions than someone convicted of murder or sexual assault.

I had never heard that about the psych ward being co-ed. That is absolutely nuts.

The psych ward in jail is such that, if you put a healthy person in there, they would lose their fucking mind. Never, ever, ever tell the police or jail staff that you are feeling suicidal. Really wish someone had told me that before instead of find out the hard way.

 

[indefinitesleep]

after having antipsychotic medication forced on me in a psychward i dont have a soul anymore i wouldnt be suicidal if i didnt get sectioned, wouldve chose prison over that

 

[bitofftoomuch]

and they also have the privilege of being separated by gender.

It's a "privilege" unless you're a trans woman who many states will lock up with men. then it's a fucking nightmare. at least in mixed gender settings women can band together to some degree.

i grew up in men's locker rooms and you couldn't force me to go back at gunpoint. men's prisons are that times a thousand and for years of your life instead of a few hours a week.

 

[needthebus]

Disclaimer: Before I begin, I want to state that I don't support either system as they are both carceral in nature and both have devastating consequences for those who end up in either of them. These consequences include, but are not limited to the loss of freedom, civil liberties, and many other social, financial, legal, and/or professional consequences. While I have written threads on this as well as expressed my stance, this article briefly touches on it, but also reiterates my previous stance and explain more in depth of my reasoning and analysis of my stance. Some of the threads or quotes may have been buried or no longer available on SaSu (after it got purged or deleted from years ago), but the general idea and whatever I could scour as references in this thread I will include or link to. Furthermore, if I were to try to find every thread, it would be too exhaustive for me, and besides that, it would be redundant.

With that said, this thread will explain and focus on why I think those who end up in the criminal justice system (will refer to it as CJ in this thread) are 'slightly' better off than those who are in the mental health system, especially with regards and respect to civil rights, and bodily autonomy. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that those who end up in the CJ system with problems and troubles are having an easier time, but between the two carceral systems, the CJ system is the lesser of the two evils and I will explain why in this thread.

The most important distinction between both carceral systems is that in one of them, you lose your credibility, anything you say is automatically, by default, invalidated and deemed unreliable testimony or word (the mental health system – once you are branded or labeled as mentally unwell, ill, or irrational, you effectively have little to no defense against such claims or (almost) anything that happens to you). This effectively renders one just about completely defenseless and at the mercy of the system and the people within that system. However, for the CJ system, at least there are much more protections, even if one does get a bad reputation or face a lot of stigma and social consequences. These include: due process, right to a lawyer, innocent (from a legal standpoint – not public standpoint per se!) until proven guilty, recourse for false imprisonment, and many other legal remedies. There are simply (almost) none for the mental health system and far more insulting is that even testimony and stories from victims of psychiatric harm are easily invalidated by the public. There is simply almost no recourse! Now of course, maybe things are slowly changing and more people are coming to their senses and becoming more skeptical of the psychiatric system, but that may take decades or much longer, though I digress.

Additional distinctions include the aftermath of the CJ system, there are organizations that seek justice (especially for the ones who are falsely convicted and later exonerated) such as The Innocence Project, Exoneration Project, Equal Justice Initiative to name a few and even in the eyes of the public, there are some supports for those kinds of false convicts. Legally speaking, there may even be civil awards (usually monetary though) for the wrongly accused and incarcerated. But for the psychiatric system and mental health system, almost none at all. Worse yet, even the public perception is automatically mental health system did nothing wrong and the person who was "wrongly" incarcerated deserved it. In cases like these, it should make one be very angry and out in the streets raising hell, but I digress.

While there are organizations that stick up for those who are harmed by the psychiatric industry and mental health system such as the Citizens Commission for Human Rights, MindFreedomInternational, Anti Psychiatry Coalition, to name a few, they are often far and few, and still far from mainstream. In fact, they even suffer backlash from the public for sticking up for the ones who are wrongly incarcerated and treated. There are also no legal recourse for those who are harmed or wronged by them. The automatic presumption that those who are in those carceral systems deserved it or are 'helped' because they needed it is not only presumptuous, ignorant, but also very insulting towards those who are genuinely harmed and such. The CJ system itself is even pro-psychiatry and supports the carceral system itself, which is why the patients who have been mistreated or wronged by said mental health system would also have a hard time for any justice at all! In present day, we have yet to reach a point in society or have enough social and legal institutions that counter (or at least serves as a third part, a check and balance) towards the psychiatric system and mental health system.

In the end, these people who are in the mental health system not only suffer greatly, but have fewer options for recourse than those who are in the CJ system. While both person(s) outcomes are similar and often abysmal in the end, the one who was wronged in the CJ system at least have a slightly better chance of justice and recourse than those who are in the mental health system. This is because in the criminal justice system, at least people recognize the flaws within it, the injustices and horrible treatment of people (especially the innocent or wrongfully convicted). As usual, I'm not going get into all the semantics and pedantic terminologies of such as that detracts from this article and I have already discussed in other threads already without being redundant. I have listed some threads as references that delve into some of the points I've discussed in this article. Finally, this is not to glorify either system as both are carceral and very damaging to a person's existence among original problems and challenges that are a part of sentience by default.

Some older threads for reference:

"Why I would rather live in a time where CTB was actually criminalized"

"How and why psych holds (even temporary ones) are considered "legalized criminality"

"CTB while not illegal, is treated like 'a crime'"

I think Scientology has done a lot of damage to criticism of psychiatry and the mental health industry, and psychiatry and the mental health industry suck and exploit people. Multiple organizations you listed are Scientology-fundeded organizations with links to Scientology.

Because Scientology has practices which are obviously cult-like, any organization associated with Scientology is looked at with skepticism because some of the practices of Scientology (ostracizing people who try to leave, taking large amounts of money from people who can't afford it) seems questionable and unethical.

Even if it is good to fund organizations critical of psychiatry, Scientology is doing a disservice to criticizing these industries because it is taking away any legitimacy of being critical of those industries. If you don't like psychiatry and the mental health industry, then perhaps you are just some "crazy cult member." There are valid reasons to criticize that industry and people should be able to be critical of that industry without being associated with a religion or cult and the fact that some of the largest organizations criticizing psychiatry are linked to a cult makes genuine and valid criticism less effective or likely to gain traction.

 

[needthebus]

The psych ward in jail is such that, if you put a healthy person in there, they would lose their fucking mind. Never, ever, ever tell the police or jail staff that you are feeling suicidal. Really wish someone had told me that before instead of find out the hard way.

If you tell them you feel suicidal, they torture you.

But it's technically not "torture" because when the government does something for "safety" then they are allowed to torture you and not call it torture.

I hate the mental health industry and mental health professionals so much. I hate all those fuckers. All the people in that industry allow abuses like that to take place. Sensory deprivation and isolation for prolonged periods is torture and they are all part of a system that reaps the rewards of torturing people and enjoys nice paychecks and lifestyles by hurting the most vulnerable, claiming they were helping, and taking their money. Even those in that industry not a part of that particular brand of torture still are a part of it because they profit from the industry and are in a position to be able to stand up to it and try to stop it, but greed prevents them.

 

[Not A Fan]

If you tell them you feel suicidal, they torture you.

But it's technically not "torture" because when the government does something for "safety" then they are allowed to torture you and not call it torture.

I hate the mental health industry and mental health professionals so much. I hate all those fuckers. All the people in that industry allow abuses like that to take place. Sensory deprivation and isolation for prolonged periods is torture and they are all part of a system that reaps the rewards of torturing people and enjoys nice paychecks and lifestyles by hurting the most vulnerable, claiming they were helping, and taking their money. Even those in that industry not a part of that particular brand of torture still are a part of it because they profit from the industry and are in a position to be able to stand up to it and try to stop it, but greed prevents them.

And the best part is, it follows you everywhere for the rest of your life. It's basically like having "DONT TRUST THIS PERSON EVER" tattooed prominently on your forehead. Everyone you ask for a job, a place to live, a bank account, a credit card, a car (ie all the necessities of modern life) you've been pre-emptively designated as "Avoid at all costs."

So much for "serving one's debt to society".

No wonder drug dealers get released from prison and start selling drugs again. The 'justice' systems all but ensures they will be locked out of the workforce. It's almost like they don't really want them to stop selling the drugs. Call it job security for cops and the DEA.

 

[needthebus]

And the best part is, it follows you everywhere for the rest of your life. It's basically like having "DONT TRUST THIS PERSON EVER" tattooed prominently on your forehead. Everyone you ask for a job, a place to live, a bank account, a credit card, a car (ie all the necessities of modern life) you've been pre-emptively designated as "Avoid at all costs."

So much for "serving one's debt to society".

No wonder drug dealers get released from prison and start selling drugs again. The 'justice' systems all but ensures they will be locked out of the workforce. It's almost like they don't really want them to stop selling the drugs. Call it job security for cops and the DEA.

It seems worse to me when this sort of treatment is done in the name of "mental health."

Torturing people with sensory deprivation and no contact with anyone is often done for people on suicide watch. People are cold as hell, in barely any clothes, watched while in barely any clothes, with no one to talk to except a captor who occasionally asks them how they are doing. Anything other than "I'm feeling great" leads to more sensory deprivation and terrible temperatures and misery. Fuck the mental health system.

When it is done after an arrest it at least isn't supposed to be treatment. As for whether the criminal justice system is designed to rehabilitate people or create a permanent underclass, the answer is obvious.

 

[Not A Fan]

It seems worse to me when this sort of treatment is done in the name of "mental health."

Torturing people with sensory deprivation and no contact with anyone is often done for people on suicide watch. People are cold as hell, in barely any clothes, watched while in barely any clothes, with no one to talk to except a captor who occasionally asks them how they are doing. Anything other than "I'm feeling great" leads to more sensory deprivation and terrible temperatures and misery. Fuck the mental health system.

When it is done after an arrest it at least isn't supposed to be treatment. As for whether the criminal justice system is designed to rehabilitate people or create a permanent underclass, the answer is obvious.

At least theoretically, the person accused of a crime is supposed to have some recourse (although in practice this isn't usually the case unless you're rich.) If someone is locked up for reasons of mental illness, they don't seem to have any legal protection or recourse; even less rights than those granted to jail inmates. I can see that being a strong argument for why one is worse than the other. Where I live, there isn't much in the way of psychiatric inpatient facilities so the jail ends up serving that function more often than not. But maybe that's actually slightly preferable, to the system of psychiatric incarceration that used to exist in the US. I don't know... it's all pretty fucked up to me.

 

[TAW122]

A lot of good responses and discussion. I like the fact that Scientology-linked organizations has done a lot to criticize and expose the flaws and abuses of these carceral systems as well as stand up for human rights, but sadly, due to their only stigma (cult-like following and other controversies), people tend to discount the truth of the abuse in the carceral systems (the mental health system, the prison system, and many more).

With regards to the comments about the carceral system being just the lesser of two evil carceral systems, I agree and believe that is indeed the case when it comes to a person's rights. Of course, both systems are flawed and harmful and no person should ever prefer to end up in either one, but for the sake of discussion and recourse, if one were to end up in one, it is slightly better to end up in one where one at least have some legal rights and social standing to fight against the allegations.

The horrors of both the prison and psychiatric wards cannot be undermined nor understated, and both are very bad in their own ways. I do personally believe that the US prison system really needs reform, but that is discussion of for another thread altogether.

 

[needthebus]

A lot of good responses and discussion. I like the fact that Scientology-linked organizations has done a lot to criticize and expose tIhe flaws and abuses of these carceral systems as well as stand up for human rights, but sadly, due to their only stigma (cult-like following and other controversies), people tend to discount the truth of the abuse in the carceral systems (the mental health system, the prison system, and many more).

With regards to the comments about the carceral system being just the lesser of two evil carceral systems, I agree and believe that is indeed the case when it comes to a person's rights. Of course, both systems are flawed and harmful and no person should ever prefer to end up in either one, but for the sake of discussion and recourse, if one were to end up in one, it is slightly better to end up in one where one at least have some legal rights and social standing to fight against the allegations.

The horrors of both the prison and psychiatric wards cannot be undermined nor understated, and both are very bad in their own ways. I do personally believe that the US prison system really needs reform, but that is discussion of for another thread altogether.

I am not inherently critical of Scientology for people who want to do it. I don't know about the organization. The reality is other people see it as cult-like which makes people distrustful.

When you are have 95 percent of criticism coming from one extremely distrusted group, the criticism may actually legitimize the object of criticism rather than result in critique.

It would be the same if the KKK was very critical of psychiatry. Because people have negative associations about the KKK (very rightfully), those negative associations would result in elevating psychiatry instead of real discussion about flaws in the profession and mental health industry.

The fact is many former Scientologists have said they were mistreated while a part of Scientology and were unable to easily leave. If Scientology wanted to have more renewed interest from many people, they would do much better getting rid of any pressure for people to stay and engaging in any financial exploitation and being extremely clear about their costs and why they charge certain things. Scientology scares me.

Although many criticisms of psychiatry are legitimate, many people get turned off as soon as they recognize it's Scientology. There would still probably be criticism of psychiatry without Scientology, but it would be more mainstream and legitimized. As it stands, being highly critical of the mental health industry and psychiatry has become equivalent to being "anti-science" and they really should not be inherently the same unless someone is just outright rejecting all double-blind peer-reviewed studies and metastudies completely without understanding statistics or science.

 

[LemonLimePie]

My autistic father made the mistake of expressing passive suicidal thoughts at a yearly physical. 5 days later (weekends don't count towards a 72 hour hold) at his hearing, after he had been roughed up by police officers, handcuffed to a hospital bed (metal handcuffs, not soft restraints), threatened with catheterization in the ER (he was too anxious to produce a urine sample in front of a nurse for drug testing), and drugged with Ativan and left in an empty room with only a gym mat on the floor to lay on for days at a psych hospital, we were able to get him out with the help of lawyer friend. We were lucky, the judge told us in 99% of his cases he extends the involuntary hold.

There has to be a balance somewhere, sure, maybe people believe they're doing good and maybe a small percentage of people are genuinely helped, but the majority of these hospitals (especially freestanding ones who specialize in psychiatry) are for-profit institutions before anything else, and are rife with abuse. I hate to say it, but those who feel "called" to work in mental hospitals without personal or family experience are often people with violent power fantasies.

 

[needthebus]

My autistic father made the mistake of expressing passive suicidal thoughts at a yearly physical. 5 days later (weekends don't count towards a 72 hour hold) at his hearing, after he had been roughed up by police officers, handcuffed to a hospital bed (metal handcuffs, not soft restraints), threatened with catheterization in the ER (he was too anxious to produce a urine sample in front of a nurse for drug testing), and drugged with Ativan and left in an empty room with only a gym mat on the floor to lay on for days at a psych hospital, we were able to get him out with the help of lawyer friend. We were lucky, the judge told us in 99% of his cases he extends the involuntary hold.

There has to be a balance somewhere, sure, maybe people believe they're doing good and maybe a small percentage of people are genuinely helped, but the majority of these hospitals (especially freestanding ones who specialize in psychiatry) are for-profit institutions before anything else, and are rife with abuse. I hate to say it, but those who feel "called" to work in mental hospitals without personal or family experience are often people with violent power fantasies.

It's mostly about financial exploitation.

I am sure people who endure such experiences are actually more likely to ultimately kill themself over the next 5 years as opposed to people who don't endure such treatment

the reason it continues is financial exploitation by a morally depraved industry that preaches about wellness, and mental health, but just wants money at the end of the day.

they could do studies on the 5 year mortality rate of people who express suicidal urges and are involuntarily hospitalized in cruel ways versus not, but they won't do them because the results don't increase their profit. They would also claim it's impossible to do such studies because of co-variance between those that are forcibly hospitalized and those having worse symptoms, but it's just a lie and they could measure that with independent and self-reported data and try to statistically correct for that.

they aren't interested in what patients forcibly treated in shit holes think because these patients are required to pay after discharge or the state is required to pay, so it doesn't matter. they don't care about real patient outcomes and don't have any data on whether they do anything other than create trauma, but if you have enough fancy diplomas the government is willing to accept cruelty as a solution, ignoring the lack of measurable positive outcomes and blatant financial exploitation by these parasitic fucks.

 

[TAW122]

I am not inherently critical of Scientology for people who want to do it. I don't know about the organization. The reality is other people see it as cult-like which makes people distrustful.

When you are have 95 percent of criticism coming from one extremely distrusted group, the criticism may actually legitimize the object of criticism rather than result in critique.

It would be the same if the KKK was very critical of psychiatry. Because people have negative associations about the KKK (very rightfully), those negative associations would result in elevating psychiatry instead of real discussion about flaws in the profession and mental health industry.

The fact is many former Scientologists have said they were mistreated while a part of Scientology and were unable to easily leave. If Scientology wanted to have more renewed interest from many people, they would do much better getting rid of any pressure for people to stay and engaging in any financial exploitation and being extremely clear about their costs and why they charge certain things. Scientology scares me.

Although many criticisms of psychiatry are legitimate, many people get turned off as soon as they recognize it's Scientology. There would still probably be criticism of psychiatry without Scientology, but it would be more mainstream and legitimized. As it stands, being highly critical of the mental health industry and psychiatry has become equivalent to being "anti-science" and they really should not be inherently the same unless someone is just outright rejecting all double-blind peer-reviewed studies and metastudies completely without understanding statistics or science.

Yeah, it seems like just because an association is tainted or considered evil, many people seem to ignore the fact that they raise good points or had done some beneficial thing to debunk, expose, or otherwise bring to light the evils of another organization. I suppose the best way would be for someone to not be apart of certain associations or have ties with such organizations that have a bad reputation when presenting their argument, as to prevent ad hominem (a fallacy where the opposition attacks the person/organization rather than the argument) attacks on the person while ignoring any legitimate arguments and/or critiques of a flawed, abusive system. On that note, I do think various individuals or certain independent organizations or groups that criticize psychiatry may be able to sway or at least open the minds of many people who seem to blindly believe that psychiatry is infalliable or benevolent (far from it actually).

My autistic father made the mistake of expressing passive suicidal thoughts at a yearly physical. 5 days later (weekends don't count towards a 72 hour hold) at his hearing, after he had been roughed up by police officers, handcuffed to a hospital bed (metal handcuffs, not soft restraints), threatened with catheterization in the ER (he was too anxious to produce a urine sample in front of a nurse for drug testing), and drugged with Ativan and left in an empty room with only a gym mat on the floor to lay on for days at a psych hospital, we were able to get him out with the help of lawyer friend. We were lucky, the judge told us in 99% of his cases he extends the involuntary hold.

There has to be a balance somewhere, sure, maybe people believe they're doing good and maybe a small percentage of people are genuinely helped, but the majority of these hospitals (especially freestanding ones who specialize in psychiatry) are for-profit institutions before anything else, and are rife with abuse. I hate to say it, but those who feel "called" to work in mental hospitals without personal or family experience are often people with violent power fantasies.

I'm very sorry to hear about that, and also this is why any interaction with medical professionals or just about anyone within the medical field one should always consider it as an interrogation or such. Even worse, according to your story, it was 'passive suicidal ideation', so even under their own "flawed" criteria for threat assessment, it shouldn't have resulted in an temporary hold! Of course, sadly, many pro-psychiatry proponents and apologists will often discount, downplay, or otherwise dismiss such an occurrence being a thing at all. Or even some people talk about 'work arounds' but really those simply fail to fix the systemic issues or point out the fact that the field itself is abusive and often unchecked (just as a note: Similar organizations, organizations that are sympathetic towards psychiatry, or even itself is NOT considered a reliable witness, there is often favoritism within them all). I do believe that people within the field itself or even those who defend it simply ignore the edge cases or even downplay the horrors that occured and for the victims who seek to get justice or restitution, they are either ridiculed, ignored, or further victimized by the same people who defend said system. I just view psychiatry as the 'social system' which is interwined with the legal system (albeit separate, they are bedfellows due to both their carceral, paternalistic, and invasive systems in regulating and policing it's citizens while violating their rights).

If possible I hope your father is able to find peace in whatever he ends up choosing to do and ideally, maybe seek restitution (if possible) for the damages incurred on him. I could say if I ended up in his situation (or worse), I would definitely not be here today, but I digress.

they could do studies on the 5 year mortality rate of people who express suicidal urges and are involuntarily hospitalized in cruel ways versus not, but they won't do them because the results don't increase their profit. They would also claim it's impossible to do such studies because of co-variance between those that are forcibly hospitalized and those having worse symptoms, but it's just a lie and they could measure that with independent and self-reported data and try to statistically correct for that.

they aren't interested in what patients forcibly treated in shit holes think because these patients are required to pay after discharge or the state is required to pay, so it doesn't matter. they don't care about real patient outcomes and don't have any data on whether they do anything other than create trauma, but if you have enough fancy diplomas the government is willing to accept cruelty as a solution, ignoring the lack of measurable positive outcomes and blatant financial exploitation by these parasitic fucks.

Also, absolutely on point. This is yet just another example of the psychiatric industry and it's proponents trying to cover up the truth and ultimately trying to make money off the powerless. Of course, no one who is actively working in that field would ever admit, and worse yet, they may even become defensive, aggressive, and hostile towards any critique that would otherwise bring to light the harms of the field itself.