[Article] The real winners are those who are no longer suffering as well as those who never came to be

[TAW122]

This thread echos sentiments of antinatalism as well as some sentiments from @FuneralCry and I have managed to put my take on it. The small bit of antinatalism comes from those who were never born, conceived, or come into existence, thus never suffered to begin with. The other sentiment is about voluntary euthanasia, which is the end of current suffering.

Note: This thread is not to glorify CTB itself, nor is it to encourage death itself. As a pro-choice forum, the choice to continue to persevere and endure life's suffering as well as the the choice to end one's suffering should be respected. This thread is my point of view and interpretation as to why the non-existent and the ones who are no longer suffering are considered the real winners from the lens of the pro-choicer.

With that said, on to the topic at heart.

"Why are those people (the non-sentient and the ones that are no longer suffering/checked out) considered winners?"

The first group of people, the ones who have successfully CTB'd and are no longer suffering. They are winners because they have conquered their natural biological instinct, called the survival instinct and exercised the ultimate expression of free will. This is no easy feat at all, as they have to have immense determination and courage to do so, acquire the means and knowledge, and finally execute their plan in hopes to be successful. Once they do, they no longer have to worry about life's problems and the problems of the living are no longer of any concern to them anymore.

Here are all the benefits of those exit on their own terms and are no longer suffering:

• No more bills nor taxation from the government.
• The problems of the living are no longer their concern.
• Any law, imposition, or authority can no longer rule over them.
• They don't have to deal with others' problems.
• They can feel no more pain.
• No more slaving, grinding, and toiling through work to sustain life.
• Will not succumb to natural causes, be subject to further decline (until death).
• Do not have to witness and experience the decline of the world.
• Ultimate act of free will, and the conquering of one's own nature, and took control of one's own fate.

(There are probably more but these are all the major ones.)

Now the other group of people, the ones who never came to be, are also considered winners (more specifically, 'lucky winners'). They are considered the lucky winners because they never suffered to begin with as they never existed to begin with! That is the best outcome ever, to never have been. They not only have the benefits of those who exit suffering on their own terms, but they actually didn't suffer anything at all.

Even though pro-lifers view death as a negative outcome, us pro-choicers view it differently. We see it as: when there is no life, there are no problems, and thus no need for solutions.

 

[just_wanna_die]

After reading this, what came to me was the famous quote from Alfred Lord Tennyson:

"'tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all".

Or put in another way:

"Is it better to have lived and died than to have never lived at all".

The older I get the more I personally feel that it would have been better to have never lived at all.

"I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born,
and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."
~Mark Twain

 

[FuneralCry]

This is very true to me, I don't envy anyone who still exists or admire anyone who chooses to suffer for their own benefit. Existing is completely undesirable and it's such a terrible thing being here and having the ability to be aware of this world. Non existence is objectively preferable to me, because as well as all of the current problems that burden us, continuing to exist is the ultimate risk, because if we stay here we could potentially suffer in ways beyond how we can even imagine. There are so many disadvantages to existing, but none to being dead, so saying that suicide is wrong under any circumstances is irrational.

It sounds like such a wonderful thing to never have to endure another day or even think about anything again. Whenever I hear of a successful ctb I always admire them and feel so much envy. Suicide is ideal to me as it's the way to prevent unnecessary suffering that would had inevitably been experienced just for us to deteriorate and die anyway. There is no point to any of this and there could never be a point to enduring this existence when instead I could already be gone. Nobody who still exists is really lucky, those who are dead are instead, but the luckiest ones of all, are those who never existed at all, I agree that it's the best outcome.

 

[TAW122]

After reading this, what came to me was the famous quote from Alfred Lord Tennyson:

"'tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all".

Or put in another way:

"Is it better to have lived and died than to have never lived at all".

The older I get the more I personally feel that it would have been better to have never lived at all.

"I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born,
and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."
~Mark Twain

That's a great quote from a famous writer. Also, I agree with your sentiments too and I hope I can succeed in CTB'ing in the coming year or so.

This is very true to me, I don't envy anyone who still exists or admire anyone who chooses to suffer for their own benefit. Existing is completely undesirable and it's such a terrible thing being here and having the ability to be aware of this world. Non existence is objectively preferable to me, because as well as all of the current problems that burden us, continuing to exist is the ultimate risk, because if we stay here we could potentially suffer in ways beyond how we can even imagine. There are so many disadvantages to existing, but none to being dead, so saying that suicide is wrong under any circumstances is irrational.

It sounds like such a wonderful thing to never have to endure another day or even think about anything again. Whenever I hear of a successful ctb I always admire them and feel so much envy. Suicide is ideal to me as it's the way to prevent unnecessary suffering that would had inevitably been experienced just for us to deteriorate and die anyway. There is no point to any of this and there could never be a point to enduring this existence when instead I could already be gone. Nobody who still exists is really lucky, those who are dead are instead, but the luckiest ones of all, are those who never existed at all, I agree that it's the best outcome.

Yes, this is my perspective too whenever I learned about the right to die, voluntary euthanasia, and also see death in a different light than what society saw it.

 

[ksp]

agreed - strongly !

how many people consider themselves to be 'winners' after watching the news. every. day !
this would include the all generations starting with the neandertals, if they had access to the world news

 

[disabledlife]

The big winners are those who have never existed, because they have never undergone the survival instinct.

Survival instinct is hell for anyone who wants to CTB, and even be euthanized, and for anyone who lives in pain and agony until their natural death (for people who want to live to the end of their life)!

The survival instinct is hell because it is what causes the fear of dying, while nature forces us to "suffer" death, no matter what. We're all going to die one day, it's inevitable!

The right to a gentle and peaceful death is the best remedy to combat the survival instinct, even if, unfortunately, it is not the ideal remedy.

I don't understand the relentlessness of the pro-lifers to decide for us what is best for us when they know full well that each suffering is subjective (that is to say that only the person who suffers feels their suffering, not others)!

 

[Jarni]

I don't understand the relentlessness of the pro-lifers to decide for us what is best for us when they know full well that each suffering is subjective (that is to say that only the person who suffers feels their suffering, not others)!

I think to decide smth for another person is at least disrespectful. And for the matter of the end of life it becomes extremely selfish, narcissistic, disrespectful and criminal. Even in prisons tortures are illegal now. So why do we allow the torture outside the prison?

 

[TAW122]

The big winners are those who have never existed, because they have never undergone the survival instinct.

Survival instinct is hell for anyone who wants to CTB, and even be euthanized, and for anyone who lives in pain and agony until their natural death (for people who want to live to the end of their life)!

The survival instinct is hell because it is what causes the fear of dying, while nature forces us to "suffer" death, no matter what. We're all going to die one day, it's inevitable!

The right to a gentle and peaceful death is the best remedy to combat the survival instinct, even if, unfortunately, it is not the ideal remedy.

I don't understand the relentlessness of the pro-lifers to decide for us what is best for us when they know full well that each suffering is subjective (that is to say that only the person who suffers feels their suffering, not others)!

Well said, that is true, the survival instinct is one of the biggest biological barriers that prevent one from finding peace, even with peaceful methods of leaving existence.

I think to decide smth for another person is at least disrespectful. And for the matter of the end of life it becomes extremely selfish, narcissistic, disrespectful and criminal. Even in prisons tortures are illegal now. So why do we allow the torture outside the prison?

That is a good point. I suppose the law and society have a long way before they catch up to human rights.

 

[CountOfTuscany]

First of all, I'd like to say that I am 100% pro-choice when it comes to suicide. If you genuinely feel the downsides of life outweigh the benefits and choose to commit suicide, it is nobody else's place to get in your way.

However, I am uncomfortable in calling people who never lived "winners" because they never suffered. Life has the potential to bring happiness, fulfillment, love, and countless other wonderful things that make nonexistence look like a rather dull endeavor! Even happy people suffer, but at the end of the day, they are still happy, because they evaluate their suffering as small enough in comparison to their happiness. I would be willing to bet that every single user of this forum has, at some point, experienced something positive enough to beat nonexistence. I, for one, believe I have a little more work to do to decide if life is good enough to continue living - but I at least acknowledge that a chance exists.

To put it simply: you're right that no life = no problems, but no life = no good things as well. Nonexistent people are not winners - they just didn't play the game. We, on the other hand, are stuck at the table playing the fucked-up casino game called life. We can choose to quit, or we can try to make the best of it. Either option is acceptable.

 

[IWantPeace99]

First of all, I'd like to say that I am 100% pro-choice when it comes to suicide. If you genuinely feel the downsides of life outweigh the benefits and choose to commit suicide, it is nobody else's place to get in your way.

However, I am uncomfortable in calling people who never lived "winners" because they never suffered. Life has the potential to bring happiness, fulfillment, love, and countless other wonderful things that make nonexistence look like a rather dull endeavor! Even happy people suffer, but at the end of the day, they are still happy, because they evaluate their suffering as small enough in comparison to their happiness. I would be willing to bet that every single user of this forum has, at some point, experienced something positive enough to beat nonexistence. I, for one, believe I have a little more work to do to decide if life is good enough to continue living - but I at least acknowledge that a chance exists.

To put it simply: you're right that no life = no problems, but no life = no good things as well. Nonexistent people are not winners - they just didn't play the game. We, on the other hand, are stuck at the table playing the fucked-up casino game called life. We can choose to quit, or we can try to make the best of it. Either option is acceptable.

You dont need happiness if you dont exist. If you werent born there was no life lost or no experience not experienced because your consiousness would never came to be.

 

[makethepainstop]

First of all, I'd like to say that I am 100% pro-choice when it comes to suicide. If you genuinely feel the downsides of life outweigh the benefits and choose to commit suicide, it is nobody else's place to get in your way.

However, I am uncomfortable in calling people who never lived "winners" because they never suffered. Life has the potential to bring happiness, fulfillment, love, and countless other wonderful things that make nonexistence look like a rather dull endeavor! Even happy people suffer, but at the end of the day, they are still happy, because they evaluate their suffering as small enough in comparison to their happiness. I would be willing to bet that every single user of this forum has, at some point, experienced something positive enough to beat nonexistence. I, for one, believe I have a little more work to do to decide if life is good enough to continue living - but I at least acknowledge that a chance exists.

To put it simply: you're right that no life = no problems, but no life = no good things as well. Nonexistent people are not winners - they just didn't play the game. We, on the other hand, are stuck at the table playing the fucked-up casino game called life. We can choose to quit, or we can try to make the best of it. Either option is acceptable.

I look at suicide as the relief one feels in a casino, when after playing a rough game of black jack, the dealer reshuffles. Maybe things will get better next shoe of cards. Well maybe my next life will be better too. So I hope that suiciding will give me another life, like the life I have always wanted. (I subscribe to the reincarnation theory of existence).

 

[TAW122]

First of all, I'd like to say that I am 100% pro-choice when it comes to suicide. If you genuinely feel the downsides of life outweigh the benefits and choose to commit suicide, it is nobody else's place to get in your way.

However, I am uncomfortable in calling people who never lived "winners" because they never suffered. Life has the potential to bring happiness, fulfillment, love, and countless other wonderful things that make nonexistence look like a rather dull endeavor! Even happy people suffer, but at the end of the day, they are still happy, because they evaluate their suffering as small enough in comparison to their happiness. I would be willing to bet that every single user of this forum has, at some point, experienced something positive enough to beat nonexistence. I, for one, believe I have a little more work to do to decide if life is good enough to continue living - but I at least acknowledge that a chance exists.

To put it simply: you're right that no life = no problems, but no life = no good things as well. Nonexistent people are not winners - they just didn't play the game. We, on the other hand, are stuck at the table playing the fucked-up casino game called life. We can choose to quit, or we can try to make the best of it. Either option is acceptable.

That is an interesting perspective and I suppose I differ in the sense that nonexistent people are still considered winners because they won a game they never played. But I can see your 'literal' meaning of having never played the game (of life). Indeed, we are stuck at the game of life that we never consented to. I like your analogy with the casino game and gambling as life (and it's events - good and bad) are indeed, a gamble.

You dont need happiness if you dont exist. If you werent born there was no life lost or no experience not experienced because your consiousness would never came to be.

This is something I would have chosen (if I had free will and a choice prior to conception).

I look at suicide as the relief one feels in a casino, when after playing a rough game of black jack, the dealer reshuffles. Maybe things will get better next shoe of cards. Well maybe my next life will be better too. So I hope that suiciding will give me another life, like the life I have always wanted. (I subscribe to the reincarnation theory of existence).

I hope that works out for you (given your belief in reincarnation). As for me, as an atheist myself, I don't subscribe to having another life-- I simply want to enjoy the state of nonexistence (which of course, ironically, cannot be experienced or enjoyed as one would not have any ability to experience nothingness) as that would end all suffering for me (even at the cost of pleasure).

 

[LookingOverTheEdge]

First of all, I'd like to say that I am 100% pro-choice when it comes to suicide. If you genuinely feel the downsides of life outweigh the benefits and choose to commit suicide, it is nobody else's place to get in your way.

However, I am uncomfortable in calling people who never lived "winners" because they never suffered. Life has the potential to bring happiness, fulfillment, love, and countless other wonderful things that make nonexistence look like a rather dull endeavor! Even happy people suffer, but at the end of the day, they are still happy, because they evaluate their suffering as small enough in comparison to their happiness. I would be willing to bet that every single user of this forum has, at some point, experienced something positive enough to beat nonexistence. I, for one, believe I have a little more work to do to decide if life is good enough to continue living - but I at least acknowledge that a chance exists.

To put it simply: you're right that no life = no problems, but no life = no good things as well. Nonexistent people are not winners - they just didn't play the game. We, on the other hand, are stuck at the table playing the fucked-up casino game called life. We can choose to quit, or we can try to make the best of it. Either option is acceptable.

This is the answer that resonates most with me.

I think life is simply potential. It can be the most amazing thing, and it can be torture, and it can flip between those things in a heartbeat. I've been heavily depressed my whole life. But there have been moments of beauty as well, and I'm grateful for those.

I also am fully of the pro choice stance. I fully support a persons right to make their own choices and decisions. With that said, I do think that suicide should always be the very last option. Not the default, so to speak.

I see a lot of these anti natal, and nihilistic viewpoints on here. And I can't honestly say I agree with them. But then we've all had different experiences that have shaped our reality. I may not agree with your viewpoints, but I accept that to you they're as valid as mine are to me and I make no judgements either way.

 

[Rob1984]

nonexistent people are still considered winners because they won a game they never played.

This does not make any sense... That is akin to saying you won the basketball game down the street that you never played in. You did not win or lose because you were not partaking in the game. You simply have zero relationship with it.

"You dont need happiness if you dont exist. If you werent born there was no life lost or no experience not experienced because your consiousness would never came to be."

This is something I would have chosen (if I had free will and a choice prior to conception).

You are saying you would make the choice to not exist before conception? But yet, one has to exist to make a "choice"...? You are contradicting yourself

 

[SamTam33]

... I would be willing to bet that every single user of this forum has, at some point, experienced something positive enough to beat nonexistence...

I really tried to think of something, but I've never experienced anything greater than the option of not existing.

The only thing that would make me want to hang around for awhile would be winning a multi-million dollar jackpot or waking up beautiful.

Even then, I'd only want to see what it was like for a little while. I wouldn't want to live until I'm 80 under any circumstance.

I can't imagine wanting to wipe my wrinkly 75 year old ass or soaking my dentures each night (when do teeth start falling out anyway?)

I'm not sure how many more years worth of child abuse cases, rapes and sex trafficking I can stomach either.

Ain't a damn thing could ever make me ok with that kind of shit. It's not enough to "elevate MY suffering..." What about everyone else?

What kind of psycho must I be to dance around and be merry while the world burns around me?

I'd much rather be dead and not know those things are occuring than to be alive and aware of them.

 

[TAW122]

This does not make any sense... That is akin to saying you won the basketball game down the street that you never played in. You did not win or lose because you were not partaking in the game. You simply have zero relationship with it.



You are saying you would make the choice to not exist before conception? But yet, one has to exist to make a "choice"...? You are contradicting yourself

The first part, yes that would perhaps be a better answer, having zero relationship with it (or just irrelevancy). As for the latter part, of course, it is not possible, but I was merely speaking in theory, like in a universe where if one had the ability to choose, then one (or I in this case) would choose to not have been. I do see your point though, logically speaking..

I really tried to think of something, but I've never experienced anything greater than the option of not existing.

The only thing that would make me want to hang around for awhile would be winning a multi-million dollar jackpot or waking up beautiful.

Even then, I'd only want to see what it was like for a little while. I wouldn't want to live until I'm 80 under any circumstance.

I can't imagine wanting to wipe my wrinkly 75 year old ass or soaking my dentures each night (when do teeth start falling out anyway?)

I'm not sure how many more years worth of child abuse cases, rapes and sex trafficking I can stomach either.

Ain't a damn thing could ever make me ok with that kind of shit. It's not enough to "elevate MY suffering..." What about everyone else?

What kind of psycho must I be to dance around and be merry while the world burns around me?

I'd much rather be dead and not know those things are occuring than to be alive and aware of them.

Good post and yes, while not existing is the deprivation of pleasure, it is also a deprivation of suffering. I'm looking and hoping to check out this year or so.