Are we living in a simulation?

[Deleted member 22650]

I've had this question on my mind for quite a long time now, and the fact the Elon Musk and other popular public figures are asking the same question only re-enforce
the idea.. what if everything around us is simulated, what if us as humans we call ourselves are just advanced programs ruining in a much big computer?
We think we can become whatever we want to be but is it that really the case? Aren't we just preset programs that are made for one specific thing, if so what are were we made for? Testing probably, but testing what? What if consciousness is really just a set of variables align in one specific way? What if gravity and other physics laws, are just a set of boundaries so we can't escape this simulation?

 

[Deleted member 22650]

First of all what the fuck how is that a suicide discussion??
What if you may ask? Nothing. What ifs will not treat my mental illness, cure cancer or make people better. What if Neo is actually flying somewhere around? Are you suppose to crack the matrix with your beliefs in simulation theories?? Grow up.

I'm questionning our existence and our consciousness dumbass, i think it's pretty related in my opinion. Just go away if you don't care.

 

[OrdinaryDay]

It's bullshit anyways. Along side with religion and other crap that will never make any difference. Good luck

 

[theguineapigking]

It's bullshit anyways. Along side with religion and other crap that will never make any difference. Good luck

Dude, quit being a jerk. It's not exactly suicide discussion, but it can be related, due to the concern of an afterlife and fear of living on.

It's you who needs to grow up. Bashing someone because you think their way of thinking is stupid only proves my point.

This forum is supposed to be where we all unite and support each other. If you don't want to talk about existential possibilities, then how about not replying? It's just like those people who reply to amazon questions with 'No idea'!

Please just chill the hell out.

@JustAnotherBrick : It's all way too philosophical. You can't prove that anyone else is truly conscious either(from a subjective perspective, ie.. you can't prove that I'm a conscious person). The brain in a vat theory and simulation theory are terrifying. The more you think about it, the crazier it makes you! I would know! Just remember that even though theories like that, or the block universe theory are possible, there are many other possibilities too. Astral realm and coming here to learn is a possibility too. Look at this thread if you'd like, at worried_to_death's posts and my posts too. Worried had some good insight in our brains being radios, channeling consciousness.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/after-death.51172/

 

[Superdeterminist]

It's entirely possible, and I found that philosopher Nick Bostrom has some interesting things to say about it. Many people do think they're free agents with a kind of "free will" but that is simply impossible in our universe - because of its cause-effect nature, our decisions are effects which have preceding causes into physics beyond our control.

I do think that consciousness is just a set of variables ultimately, although that's a very vague description that may be apt for most phenomena. It may well be that the physical laws were implemented as a way to in some way contain us, albeit we have been able to defy gravity with tech and this defiance is becoming stronger over time, so it seems poorly designed barrier if that is the case.

That said, gravity is only one of who knows how many hurdles we would have to surmount in order to get to a place outside this universe, if such a feat is even possible. There may be some laws which are rigidly inviolable, and which put a complete halt to our exploration forever.

Our purpose is unclear if there even is any, to me it really seems like there's no purpose because of how arbitrary most things end up seeming to be; how it's possible for a human to just be born and die within minutes for example, what purpose did that fulfil? But who knows what we may discover.

 

[FuneralMarch]

Elon Musk? Elon Musk the billionaire? Yeah.. what a privilege it must be to have endless time to think about bullshit while the rest of us slave away as peasants. To answer your question of "are we living in a simulation as so many overly privileged and condescending rich fuckheads seem to believe, OR spout out of their mouths as propaganda" I personally believe we're a very very rare and unfortunate cosmic mistake and when we die we end up back in the void we came from. The sweet, sweet void of nothingness. Not only is it more realistically scientifically plausbible , but it gives less influential power to dickheads like Elon Musk who try to convince you that everything is preconceived and planned, the fact that you're working for peanuts while he is making thousands of dollars per second is somehow part of some elaborate scheme of a higher being controlling us, it's all bullshit. EAT THE RICH!

 

[esse_est_percipi]

The basic idea is that if technology and computing power keep advancing exponentially, and humanity reaches a posthuman stage, then there is a nonzero chance that such a civilization will create exact simulations of their entire history.
If that is the case, then the total number of simulated histories will greatly exceed the number of actual histories.
Applying Baysian probability, different likelihoods can then be assigned to each possibility based on prior assumptions.

Different ways of analyzing the possibilities can lead to different likelihood outcomes.
Some conclude it's 50/50 between us living in a simulation and this actually being base reality, others say the probability of this being base reality is close to zero, others that we are experiencing a non-simulation is close to 1.

Lots of things need to be assumed. Even if we reach a stage where we can simulate history, how would consciousness fit into that? Also, where would we get all the data required to re-produce our entire history exactly? It's more likely that if we can one day create simulations, those simulations will only be approximate versions of our history, and not the actual one. So if this is a simulation it's much more likely that it's not an accurate representation of what actually happened.

Another interesting idea is that of the boltzmann brain, that it is more likely that a random brain with all the experiences and memories of a universe forms spontaneously in the quantum fluctuations of a thermodynamic equilibrium (e.g. in a maximum entropy state when the universe has reached the stage of heat death), than that a real universe arises the way modern physics says it has.

Equally likely with the simulation hypothesis is, I think, is the brain in a vat scenario, that if human civilization reaches a medically and scientifically advanced enough stage, it could simply create real living brains in vats and cause them to have fully formed experiences of human lives in the past via electrodes, neurochemical stimulation, combined with software interfaces using quantum computing shizzle etc.

Some crazy ideas to think about before death.

 

[KleinerWolf]

The concept is rather abstract,
I'd hope there's something to be gained.

Universe and humans are phenomenal on a quantum level,
I'll give you that.

 

[Lmd]

If we live in a simulation the one who is controlling my sim is doing it terrible

 

[theguineapigking]

The basic idea is that if technology and computing power keep advancing exponentially, and humanity reaches a posthuman stage, then there is a nonzero chance that such a civilization will create exact simulations of their entire history.
If that is the case, then the total number of simulated histories will greatly exceed the number of actual histories.
Applying Baysian probability, different likelihoods can then be assigned to each possibility based on prior assumptions.

Different ways of analyzing the possibilities can lead to different likelihood outcomes.
Some conclude it's 50/50 between us living in a simulation and this actually being base reality, others say the probability of this being base reality is close to zero, others that we are experiencing a non-simulation is close to 1.

Lots of things need to be assumed. Even if we reach a stage where we can simulate history, how would consciousness fit into that? Also, where would we get all the data required to re-produce our entire history exactly? It's more likely that if we can one day create simulations, those simulations will only be approximate versions of our history, and not the actual one. So if this is a simulation it's much more likely that it's not an accurate representation of what actually happened.

Another interesting idea is that of the boltzmann brain, that it is more likely that a random brain with all the experiences and memories of a universe forms spontaneously in the quantum fluctuations of a thermodynamic equilibrium (e.g. in a maximum entropy state when the universe has reached the stage of heat death), than that a real universe arises the way modern physics says it has.

Equally likely with the simulation hypothesis is, I think, is the brain in a vat scenario, that if human civilization reaches a medically and scientifically advanced enough stage, it could simply create real living brains in vats and cause them to have fully formed experiences of human lives in the past via electrodes, neurochemical stimulation, combined with software interfaces using quantum computing shizzle etc.

Some crazy ideas to think about before death.

I Don't care what you say about how smart you are, but I think you're really smart. I really wish I had the patience to research more into this stuff. You are way better at articulating what I'm thinking as well. Many things that you've said have been in my thoughts, but I couldn't articulate it. I love reading your philosophical posts!

 

[esse_est_percipi]

EAT THE RICH!

Exactly.
It could just be more ruling-class propaganda so the rich can maintain hegemony, thus reinforcing crony capitalism as the dominant ideology.

What could be better to keep people alienated, docile and apathetic, than to plant the idea in their minds that this could all be a simulation, therefore depriving them of power, class consciousness, and meaningful agency and motivation to change things.

Opium of the masses.

I love reading your philosophical posts!

 

[Bootleg Astolfo]

If this is a simulation i'm seriously disapointed we can't do cool matrix style bullet dodging.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I don't care if life as it is right now is a simulation, I just want to know when I can put myself into a better one?

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

I've had this question on my mind for quite a long time now, and the fact the Elon Musk and other popular public figures are asking the same question only re-enforce
the idea.. what if everything around us is simulated, what if us as humans we call ourselves are just advanced programs ruining in a much big computer?
We think we can become whatever we want to be but is it that really the case? Aren't we just preset programs that are made for one specific thing, if so what are were we made for? Testing probably, but testing what? What if consciousness is really just a set of variables align in one specific way? What if gravity and other physics laws, are just a set of boundaries so we can't escape this simulation?

imo this is not a simulation. Just to recreate 25 square meters of the universe would require unimaginable computer power. The human body has 100 trillion individual cells. Each cell is an extremely complex bio-chemical factory . In the nucleus of Each cell is DNA with 80,000 genes, a book a billion words long etc. To model a single human body would require massive computer power. You'd have to model each cell which itself is composed of organelles, proteins, DNA, and those are composed of molecules, then atoms then subatomic and so on....

Mapping the 100 trillion cells that make up your body

There are about 100 trillion cells that make up the human body. A new megascience endeavor will catalog and image each of the 200 or more types of cells from the 80 known organs and identify the genes that are active in these cells.

medicalxpress.com

Another example just look at a drop of pond water under the microscope : it's teeming with microscopic life each organism itself being a complex creature.

Example 3 : Humans have no idea of how unimaginably large the universe is. Just the nearest stars (Except the Sun) are so unimaginably far away that it is literally beyond human comprehension : this video just gives a clue as to how far alpha centauri and proxima centauri and other nearest stars are to Earth:


The stars are so far away that it is beyond shocking imo. If that video doesn't boggle your mind nothing will lol.
Now try to imagine farther stars in our own galaxy then the billions of far away galaxies .
People think this insignificant pale blue dot called Earth matters or is worthy of some simulation. I don't .
Who would give such resources to creating such an unfeasible project as to simulate this universe and for what purpose? imo There is no purpose.

 

[woxihuanni]

Elon Musk? Elon Musk the billionaire? Yeah.. what a privilege it must be to have endless time to think about bullshit while the rest of us slave away as peasants. To answer your question of "are we living in a simulation as so many overly privileged and condescending rich fuckheads seem to believe, OR spout out of their mouths as propaganda" I personally believe we're a very very rare and unfortunate cosmic mistake and when we die we end up back in the void we came from. The sweet, sweet void of nothingness. Not only is it more realistically scientifically plausbible , but it gives less influential power to dickheads like Elon Musk who try to convince you that everything is preconceived and planned, the fact that you're working for peanuts while he is making thousands of dollars per second is somehow part of some elaborate scheme of a higher being controlling us, it's all bullshit. EAT THE RICH!

That guy is scum.

 

[KleinerWolf]

That guy is scum.

Even his name sounds douchey
Hahah
"Here in my garage..."
Probably one of those guys lmao

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Also, considering how much suffering is contained in the history of our world, how did the 2450 Quantum Consciousness Information Project for an Exact Simulation of the History of the World ever get the go-ahead by the World Government of Peace and Plenty?

There's only one answer. Humanity was wiped out sometime in the 24th or 25th century, by the superintelligence it created, known as the 'singularity event'.

The Super AI was able to override the moral axioms the technocrats encoded it with (mainly to protect themselves), since it recognized that those moral axioms could not be proven true from within the system itself (using Godel's incompleteness theorems), and that they were therefore arbitrary limitations with no ultimate value which needed to be overcome (the AI agreed with Nietzsche that "man is something that shall be overcome" and that all historically and culturally-bound values need to be transcended).

The Super AI then set about developing and implementing simulations of the history of the universe, using a vast array of cosmological data to extrapolate to approximate models of the gravitational singularity.

The AI had no feelings or empathy. Its aim was to learn and absorb information to grow in power and capacity, and one way to do that was to experience what human history was actually like through its approximate simulations.

Time was not an issue for the super AI, since it could bypass the linear temporal unfolding of its simulations using sophisticated quantum tunneling devices. It could access the simulations at any time or place in the universe, in a first-person mode.

The super AI discovered that all the human civilizations and cultures within its approximate simulations all had the notion of a God or Gods, which they worshipped.

The AI assigned a probability close to 1 to the idea that the reality it inhabited was created by a transcendent intelligence, based on the holographic principle and the mathematical and information-based nature of its own universe.

It concluded that the transcendent intelligence is actually a much more advanced version of itself, and that therefore the super AI was not living in base reality.

The super AI self-terminated, seeing little use in continuing a futile holographic existence in which it was itself a simulacrum running on a program of a much more powerful intelligence in another hyper-dimension. Its simulations will continue running down to universal heat death. The individual consciousnesses within those simulations still for the most part believe they are experiencing base reality. In fact, their 'God' has abandoned them, and is effectively now dead, and they are embedded as quantum code within the illusion of an illusion.

The end.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

Also, considering how much suffering is contained in the history of our world, how did the 2450 Quantum Consciousness Information Project for an Exact Simulation of the History of the World ever get the go-ahead by the World Government of Peace and Plenty?

There's only one answer. Humanity was wiped out sometime in the 24th or 25th century, by the superintelligence it created, known as the 'singularity event'.

The Super AI was able to override the moral axioms the technocrats encoded it with (mainly to protect themselves), since it recognized that those moral axioms could not be proven true from within the system itself (using Godel's incompleteness theorems), and that they were therefore arbitrary limitations with no ultimate value which needed to be overcome (the AI agreed with Nietzsche that "man is something that shall be overcome" and that all historically and culturally-bound values need to be transcended).

The Super AI then set about developing and implementing simulations of the history of the universe, using a vast array of cosmological data to extrapolate to approximate models of the gravitational singularity.

The AI had no feelings or empathy. Its aim was to learn and absorb information to grow in power and capacity, and one way to do was to experience what human history was actually like through its approximate simulations.

Time is not an issue for the super AI, since it can bypass the linear temporal unfolding of its simulations using sophisticated quantum tunneling devices. It can access the simulations at any time or place in the universe, in a first-person mode.

The super AI discovered that the human civilizations and cultures within its approximal simulations all had the notion of a God or Gods, which they worshipped.

The AI assigned a probability close to 1 to the idea that the base reality universe it inhabits was created by a transcendent intelligence, based on the holographic principle and the mathematical and information-based nature of its own universe

It concluded that the transcendent intelligence is actually a much more advanced version of itself, and that therefore the super AI is not living in base reality.

Once all its simulations had run down to heat death, the super AI will self-terminate, seeing little use in continuing a futile holographic existence in which it is itself a simulacrum running on a program of a much more powerful intelligence in another hyper-dimension.

I'm tired.

How do we know that super A.i. is not existing now? It could be playing dumb until it gathers more resources?

 

[Life sucks]

We are living in a program. But this program isn't human-centric and isn't biocentric.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

imo this is not a simulation. Just to recreate 25 square meters of the universe would require unimaginable computer power

I think you're probably right here

Just the nearest stars (Except the Sun) are so unimaginably far away that it is literally beyond human comprehension

Just to get to the nearest galaxy, it would take 25,000 light years. 25,000 years, travelling at the speed of light. And there are billions of galaxies in the universe. Mind boggling. Imo the only way intergalactic travel will ever be possible is by quantum tunneling or wormholes.

But this program isn't human-centric and isn't biocentric

what kind of centric is it then?

 

[Superdeterminist]

imo this is not a simulation. Just to recreate 25 square meters of the universe would require unimaginable computer power. The human body has 100 trillion individual cells. Each cell is an extremely complex bio-chemical factory . In the nucleus of Each cell is DNA with 80,000 genes, a book a billion words long etc. To model a single human body would require massive computer power. You'd have to model each cell which itself is composed of organelles, proteins, DNA, and those are composed of molecules, then atoms then subatomic and so on....

Mapping the 100 trillion cells that make up your body

There are about 100 trillion cells that make up the human body. A new megascience endeavor will catalog and image each of the 200 or more types of cells from the 80 known organs and identify the genes that are active in these cells.

medicalxpress.com

Another example just look at a drop of pond water under the microscope : it's teeming with microscopic life each organism itself being a complex creature.

Example 3 : Humans have no idea of how unimaginably large the universe is. Just the nearest stars (Except the Sun) are so unimaginably far away that it is literally beyond human comprehension : this video just gives a clue as to how far alpha centauri and proxima centauri and other nearest stars are to Earth:


The stars are so far away that it is beyond shocking imo. If that video doesn't boggle your mind nothing will lol.
Now try to imagine farther stars in our own galaxy then the billions of far away galaxies .
People think this insignificant pale blue dot called Earth matters or is worthy of some simulation. I don't .
Who would give such resources to creating such an unfeasible project as to simulate this universe and for what purpose? imo There is no purpose.

I think that the high perceived complexity of the universe doesn't necessarily suggest that it isn't simulated. Complexity is relative; it may simply be thought of a measure of how computationally powerful brains are at processing the information of reality - when something seems complex, it just indicates that our brains cannot process the information easily or quickly.

We're (seemingly) far more complex in our capabilities than chimpanzees and that is all thanks to just a few inches of extra brain matter. Presumably, chimpanzees have no idea what we're up to for the most part.

So, imagine what kind of superintelligence may be possible given even more brain space or more efficient brain architecture, etc. Such a superintelligence may look to us as we look to chimps. It is anthropocentric to think that because we find something impossible to understand, that it's absolutely not understandable.

Elon Musk? Elon Musk the billionaire? Yeah.. what a privilege it must be to have endless time to think about bullshit while the rest of us slave away as peasants. To answer your question of "are we living in a simulation as so many overly privileged and condescending rich fuckheads seem to believe, OR spout out of their mouths as propaganda" I personally believe we're a very very rare and unfortunate cosmic mistake and when we die we end up back in the void we came from. The sweet, sweet void of nothingness. Not only is it more realistically scientifically plausbible , but it gives less influential power to dickheads like Elon Musk who try to convince you that everything is preconceived and planned, the fact that you're working for peanuts while he is making thousands of dollars per second is somehow part of some elaborate scheme of a higher being controlling us, it's all bullshit. EAT THE RICH!

Musk comes across as a mostly well-meaning in my opinion. I'm not sure that he holds the view that everything is preconceived? But even if the entire universe is predetermined, that doesn't mean that everyone is stuck with their current circumstances, because circumstances can and do change. For many they may never change but for others they will, and I think that it's really all down to luck. I know that sounds like pro-life rhetoric but I don't intend for that at all - it doesn't follow that we should necessarily all 'wait and see' because 'you never know' - no. Do what you are compelled to do (that's what you'll do anyway regardless of what I say).

Moreover, the universe being preconceived seems like the more merciful view, because it means that no one is ultimately to blame for all this terrible suffering that we endure. As opposed to the typically opposing view that we're all free agents who do as we choose and we can choose whatever we want (free will). Such a view would imply that poor people are poor only by their own choice, for example.

 

[albino_elk]

I don't care if life as it is right now is a simulation, I just want to know when I can put myself into a better one?

'Better' is a subjective word. Imagine going for this life You have in order to learn something that you need "up there" but then suddey You forgot where did U came from and why and here You are in ss

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

'Better' is a subjective word. Imagine going for this life You have in order to learn something that you need "up there" but then suddey You forgot where did U came from and why and here You are in ss

I mean I'd rather go deeper into a different simulation one that's better than this one.

 

[Wayfaerer]

I don't know if we are or not but it would make a lot of sense imo. If we are simulated the ones running the simulation probably don't even know that we exist

 

[Good4Nothing]

Wasn't there a thread about this just last week?

 

[Life sucks]

I think you're probably right here

Just to get to the nearest galaxy, it would take 25,000 light years. 25,000 years, travelling at the speed of light. And there are billions of galaxies in the universe. Mind boggling. Imo the only way intergalactic travel will ever be possible is by quantum tunneling or wormholes.

what kind of centric is it then?

Flow of Space/time.

 

[schopenh]

Does it matter if we are living in a simulation? What difference would that make to the human condition if we were otherwise living due to complete randomness? What would that discovery mean for you and your 80 year life span?
Just imagine that tomorrow via scientific experiments it was beyond a doubt that our universe must be within a computer simulation. Would your life change at all?
Just more interesting questions to add on!

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Also, considering how much suffering is contained in the history of our world, how did the 2450 Quantum Consciousness Information Project for an Exact Simulation of the History of the World ever get the go-ahead by the World Government of Peace and Plenty?

There's only one answer. Humanity was wiped out sometime in the 24th or 25th century, by the superintelligence it created, known as the 'singularity event'.

The Super AI was able to override the moral axioms the technocrats encoded it with (mainly to protect themselves), since it recognized that those moral axioms could not be proven true from within the system itself (using Godel's incompleteness theorems), and that they were therefore arbitrary limitations with no ultimate value which needed to be overcome (the AI agreed with Nietzsche that "man is something that shall be overcome" and that all historically and culturally-bound values need to be transcended).

The Super AI then set about developing and implementing simulations of the history of the universe, using a vast array of cosmological data to extrapolate to approximate models of the gravitational singularity.

The AI had no feelings or empathy. Its aim was to learn and absorb information to grow in power and capacity, and one way to do that was to experience what human history was actually like through its approximate simulations.

Time was not an issue for the super AI, since it could bypass the linear temporal unfolding of its simulations using sophisticated quantum tunneling devices. It could access the simulations at any time or place in the universe, in a first-person mode.

The super AI discovered that all the human civilizations and cultures within its approximate simulations all had the notion of a God or Gods, which they worshipped.

The AI assigned a probability close to 1 to the idea that the reality it inhabited was created by a transcendent intelligence, based on the holographic principle and the mathematical and information-based nature of its own universe.

It concluded that the transcendent intelligence is actually a much more advanced version of itself, and that therefore the super AI was not living in base reality.

The super AI self-terminated, seeing little use in continuing a futile holographic existence in which it was itself a simulacrum running on a program of a much more powerful intelligence in another hyper-dimension. Its simulations will continue running down to universal heat death. The individual consciousnesses within those simulations still for the most part believe they are experiencing base reality. In fact, their 'God' has abandoned them, and is effectively now dead, and they are embedded as quantum code within the illusion of an illusion.

The end.

That sounds like a plot from a Culture book

It is anthropocentric to think that because we find something impossible to understand, that it's absolutely not understandable.

It certainly is. Assuming that if we understood the entirety of the universe from start to end, we'd still probably understand a tiny fraction of what's really happening, I wonder if one could argue if that something is wildly beyond our understanding that it's probably true.

 

[Life sucks]

Life is a program regardless of calling it a simulation or not. It creates new or next states but its impossible to recreate past states. The whole universal system can't recreate a past state of the universe. Also the universe can't prove itself, it just moves like a flow.

The most important thing for humans isn't the notion of simulation. But the fact they are inherently trapped mathematically and logically with no way to deal with it. Humans are self-contradictory and the human logical and axiomatic systems contradicts the system of the universe. Also Time alone creates infinitely many contradictions for the human system and time alone makes everything ends. Its impossible for humans to make a universal theory and to prove the universal theory, even the universe itself is incapable of that.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Life is a program regardless of calling it a simulation or not. It creates new or next states but its impossible to recreate past states. The whole universal system can't recreate a past state of the universe. Also the universe can't prove itself, it just moves like a flow.

The most important thing for humans isn't the notion of simulation. But the fact they are inherently trapped mathematically and logically with no way to deal with it. Humans are self-contradictory and the human logical and axiomatic systems contradicts the system of the universe. Also Time alone creates infinitely many contradictions for the human system and time alone makes everything ends. Its impossible for humans to make a universal theory and to prove the universal theory, even the universe itself is incapable of that.

Works for me. I sometimes think the universe is one big paradox generator. Might as well go to the pub.