Anyone feeling as much horror and despair that the Ukrainian civilian population is being massacred as the West just sits back and watches?

[KimKevorkian]

I find this so unbelievable that we are not interceding to help prevent a humanitarian catastrophe and wholesale slaughter of the Ukrainian people. The U.S. can no longer claim any sort of moral authority. Disgusting. I say take those fucking Russians on and let the chips fall where they may. We're just delaying the inevitable. China moving on Taiwan is next. At a MINIMUM, give them the Iron Dome that Israel has. And if Israel wanted to do a good thing for once, they'd jump in to protect Ukraine. Everyone's a fucking pussy.

 

[PreussenBlueJay]

The China invading Taiwan thing is unfair in my opinion. China never makes any aggressive moves toward it despite claiming it historically and it being close and small and fairly indefensible. About the other stuff, it's brutal to see civilians and even defending soldiers (fighting the justest of just wars, ones of home defense and not "national security") dying. However, the calculation has been made rightly or wrongly that Putin really will launch nukes and that would be bad. Personally I am prepared for the end but making the decision for so many lives to end is a big one and wrong one. Putin is wrong for this war but innocent people don't deserve hatred or death.

 

[KimKevorkian]

The China invading Taiwan thing is unfair in my opinion. China never makes any aggressive moves toward it despite claiming it historically and it being close and small and fairly indefensible. About the other stuff, it's brutal to see civilians and even defending soldiers (fighting the justest of just wars, ones of home defense and not "national security") dying. However, the calculation has been made rightly or wrongly that Putin really will launch nukes and that would be bad. Personally I am prepared for the end but making the decision for so many lives to end is a big one and wrong one. Putin is wrong for this war but innocent people don't deserve hatred or death.

China swallowed up Hong Kong (I know the British agreed to give it back to the mainland). I don't see how Taiwan won't be the next target on China's list. These are completely authoritarian megalomaniacal ideologues. Time will tell. Right now, we'll just watch the Ukrainians get massacred while our fucking thumbs are up our asses. Pathetic! The nukes are going to happen inevitably regardless. It's just a matter of time. Most of us won't even be around in 50 yrs I bet. We need to do something. Air defense. What's the goddamn Rubicon already? We just going to let this maniac commit genocide? Well, yeah, probably. We never stepped up to stop the savage Saudis from massacring the Yemenis nor do we ever dare intervene on behalf of the Palestinians against Israeli oppression and murder. Never. And I say this as an atheist from a long line of rabbis in my lineage. Nope. The U.S. is morally bankrupt. BUT, it has the opportunity to do the right thing here. At least the Iron Dome.

 

[callme]

Well China has had at least 60 years to do it, yet Taiwan is still there. Well, maybe on the Chinese Google maps it isn't but that's just useless chest-thumping.

How is Israel diplomatically allied with Ukraine? It's a bit overstated they should make any move. They have enough trouble on their own. Similarly, one of the few supporting Russia is Iran, but no reports of military aid, is there? It isn't geographically justified, neither historically.

You're right about the inevitable. A demagogue stops only when they are forcibly stopped. But for any country to do that, it must be on a universal moral high ground, in a good way. This is the tremendous advantage the US had over the USSR at its dissolution, taking more and more influence on Russian citizens in 1989. I am saying that moral advantage must be realised locally too, but that is just a faraway dream in Russia. State media has a steel grip.

The least that could be done is canning the ww2 rhetoric to begin with. The more pervasive it is in the west, the stronger justification will be for Russians. Latest reports there claim real, present-day concentration camps, human torture and every bit of nazi war crime rhetoric as official news, and this is serious.

They're of course claiming war crimes, genocide, and condemn the west for not inflicting sanctions on Ukraine for the Donbass war. So it's clear all the talk of nazis, genocides, etc must stop. Then the US can keep winning moral support.

If there's will, there's hope, as the English would have it.

 

[KimKevorkian]

If you were an offical with lots of juice on the phone with Zelensky imploring you, is that what you would say?

 

[Weebster]

I personally don't care about global problems or things that occur halfway around the world.

 

[PreussenBlueJay]

China swallowed up Hong Kong (I know the British agreed to give it back to the mainland). I don't see how Taiwan won't be the next target on China's list. These are completely authoritarian megalomaniacal ideologues. Time will tell. Right now, we'll just watch the Ukrainians get massacred while our fucking thumbs are up our asses. Pathetic! The nukes are going to happen inevitably regardless. It's just a matter of time. Most of us won't even be around in 50 yrs I bet. We need to do something. Air defense. What's the goddamn Rubicon already? We just going to let this maniac commit genocide? Well, yeah, probably. We never stepped up to stop the savage Saudis from massacring the Yemenis nor do we ever dare intervene on behalf of the Palestinians against Israeli oppression and murder. Never. And I say this as an atheist from a long line of rabbis in my lineage. Nope. The U.S. is morally bankrupt. BUT, it has the opportunity to do the right thing here. At least the Iron Dome.

You're right. America has no moral direction at this point. It could very well be that our rulers tempted Putin into this course of action knowing how damaging it would be for Russia. We never step in for the Palestinians and we start wars for totally bogus pretexts. And I think you're right about the inevitability of nuclear war. This situation is so far out of control that it's likely it continues to spiral. But diplomacy is possible. It is possible that Russia could change once the kleptocrat is gone. He won't live forever.

That being said, if I were stupidly placed in charge I'd fire the arsenal. Uh... Kaboom?!

Well China has had at least 60 years to do it, yet Taiwan is still there. Well, maybe on the Chinese Google maps it isn't but that's just useless chest-thumping.

How is Israel diplomatically allied with Ukraine? It's a bit overstated they should make any move. They have enough trouble on their own. Similarly, one of the few supporting Russia is Iran, but no reports of military aid, is there? It isn't geographically justified, neither historically.

You're right about the inevitable. A demagogue stops only when they are forcibly stopped. But for any country to do that, it must be on a universal moral high ground, in a good way. This is the tremendous advantage the US had over the USSR at its dissolution, taking more and more influence on Russian citizens in 1989. I am saying that moral advantage must be realised locally too, but that is just a faraway dream in Russia. State media has a steel grip.

The least that could be done is canning the ww2 rhetoric to begin with. The more pervasive it is in the west, the stronger justification will be for Russians. Latest reports there claim real, present-day concentration camps, human torture and every bit of nazi war crime rhetoric as official news, and this is serious.

They're of course claiming war crimes, genocide, and condemn the west for not inflicting sanctions on Ukraine for the Donbass war. So it's clear all the talk of nazis, genocides, etc must stop. Then the US can keep winning moral support.

If there's will, there's hope, as the English would have it.

I didn't realize it was getting that out of hand. My American Russia-fan friend kept mentioning Azov and yeah some are neo-Nazis but they don't appear to be in charge of anything. They even were banned from receiving weapons from America and they aren't in government, same as anywhere

 

[whatevs]

I personally don't care about global problems or things that occur halfway around the world.

Based

You're right. America has no moral direction at this point. It could very well be that our rulers tempted Putin into this course of action knowing how damaging it would be for Russia. We never step in for the Palestinians and we start wars for totally bogus pretexts. And I think you're right about the inevitability of nuclear war. This situation is so far out of control that it's likely it continues to spiral. But diplomacy is possible. It is possible that Russia could change once the kleptocrat is gone. He won't live forever.

That being said, if I were stupidly placed in charge I'd fire the arsenal. Uh... Kaboom?!

I didn't realize it was getting that out of hand. My American Russia-fan friend kept mentioning Azov and yeah some are neo-Nazis but they don't appear to be in charge of anything. They even were banned from receiving weapons from America and they aren't in government, same as anywhere

Supposedly they are military battalions of neo-nazis that Putin will "de-nazify". I know they do exist throughout the whole East European zone and particularly there, but ironically to my knowledge murderer neo-nazis are more common in Russia. A less fantastical reason for the invasion is that Russian citizens and rusophile separatists where being killed In Donbass and Luhansk. And they were losing the civil war.

Also, Zelensky is literally a globalist puppet that used to be a comedian debasing himself on the screen and a Jew, so if you are an actual nazi you probably hate him. I don't think these groups are in the govt, probably they are tolerated while they are useful militarily and that's it.

 

[PreussenBlueJay]

Based

Supposedly they are military battalions of neo-nazis that Putin will "de-nazify". I know they do exist throughout the whole East European zone and particularly there, but ironically to my knowledge murderer neo-nazis are more common in Russia. A less fantastical reason for the invasion is that Russian citizens and rusophile separatists where being killed In Donbass and Luhansk.

Also, Zelensky is literally a globalist puppet that used to be a comedian debasing himself on the screen and a Jew, so if you are an actual nazi you probably hate him. I don't think these groups are in the govt, probably they are tolerated while they are useful militarily and that's it.

Yes. I've seen those Russian "ultra-nationalists" before. It's safe to say neo-Nazis exist in every country. As for Donbas, I think the Ukrainian government began contesting it when it wanted to break away because those plebiscites can be a little dubious, and Russia contributed to the shenanigans to use it as a pretext for hostilities, like in Georgia with South Ossetia. It may have been the right call to let it go but I don't know. Personally, borders seem anachronistic with all the immigration in the world, including in Russia. There are large parts of Russia that aren't Russian and I don't know if they can leave.

 

[Weebster]

Based

Supposedly they are military battalions of neo-nazis that Putin will "de-nazify". I know they do exist throughout the whole East European zone and particularly there, but ironically to my knowledge murderer neo-nazis are more common in Russia. A less fantastical reason for the invasion is that Russian citizens and rusophile separatists where being killed In Donbass and Luhansk. And they were losing the civil war.

Also, Zelensky is literally a globalist puppet that used to be a comedian debasing himself on the screen and a Jew, so if you are an actual nazi you probably hate him. I don't think these groups are in the govt, probably they are tolerated while they are useful militarily and that's it.

Based on what? Just kidding lol

 

[whatevs]

Yes. I've seen those Russian "ultra-nationalists" before. It's safe to say neo-Nazis exist in every country. As for Donbas, I think the Ukrainian government began contesting it when it wanted to break away because those plebiscites can be a little dubious, and Russia contributed to the shenanigans to use it as a pretext for hostilities, like in Georgia with South Ossetia. It may have been the right call to let it go but I don't know. Personally, borders seem anachronistic with all the immigration in the world, including in Russia. There are large parts of Russia that aren't Russian and I don't know if they can leave.

I actually agree, I would get rid of at least continental borders, which ironically means I am a globalist myself. And continental governance could be a sign of progress as well... I just don't want to be governed by a sinister shadow elite that is shoving us into a Black Mirror episode, culturally, politically and economically. Just because they appropriate appealing ideas doesn't mean that they are good people.

As I said in another thread, people like me are expecting an opportunity to bring war to our own governments, which is the only sensible thing to do. If they try to mobilize Europeans to die in one of their forged wars to foster the Great Reset I hope some of us go to the only front line that matters. The way that our governments have harassed and oppressed us "to protect our health" during the last 2 years shows they are the biggest enemy to contend with.

 

[callme]

We never step in for the Palestinians and we start wars for totally bogus pretexts

Well, that would be an immediate reaction from Israel, so the US government could be cut some slack in keeping their allies, at least they'll be logical for once. Or they could in typical fashion keep Israel as an ally, but send weapons to Palestine.

He won't live forever.

It won't be soon. Besides, it will be just another one after him.

didn't realize it was getting that out of hand. My American Russia-fan friend kept mentioning Azov and yeah some are neo-Nazis but they don't appear to be in charge of anything. They even were banned from receiving weapons from America and they aren't in government, same as anywhere

I'm afraid it's worse. The Azov battalion is indeed armed, and doesn't belong in the same way other neo nazi organisations do.

Supposedly they are military battalions of neo-nazis that Putin will "de-nazify". I know they do exist throughout the whole East European zone and particularly there, but ironically to my knowledge murderer neo-nazis are more common in Russia.

Russian and other European varieties are somewhat organized football hooligans at best, but the ones in Azov are somewhere between military and paramilitary. If the way they are portrayed in Russia as committing all kinds of atrocities, they appear to be a self-interested group of murderers and maraduers. I imagine no different than the kadyrovites (Chechen murderers) Russia deploys. Full fledged maniacal trash.

A less fantastical reason for the invasion is that Russian citizens and rusophile separatists where being killed In Donbass and Luhansk. And they were losing the civil war.

Yes, connected to the so-called denazification, because apparently those neo-nazis have been propping up the war for 8 years. And the good old Russian nationalism and inevitable irredentism which makes the ordinary citizen convinced to no end and completely doubtless that Ukraine and Ukrainian identity are Russian and need to be taken back. That is also Kremlin's official stance.

Here's a propagandist article in English, by a Russian: Russia needs Novorossiya

Also, Zelensky is literally a globalist puppet that used to be a comedian debasing himself on the screen and a Jew, so if you are an actual nazi you probably hate him. I don't think these groups are in the govt, probably they are tolerated while they are useful militarily and that's it.

First part isn't exactly so. Generally, in eastern politics, or at least eastern European, emotional appeal and all other bias is the basis for politics, consistency barely exists. Russian media can spin around this fact, you're not wrong, to pointing out that Ukraine's current government is a far-right one, that is what they do. So the line between coherency of the fact the president himself is of Jewish origin will be null and void, because if he's the governor of Ukraine, he is the current "nazist" far-right status quo. Or if his presidency won't be considered as legitimate in a state of martial law, then it doesn't matter that he is Jewish. They can spin it any way.

Second point, it'closest to the truth. In hard times, armed rogues always take advantage of ordinary citizens, if that's what Azov battalion is. I hope you're right.

As for Donbas, I think the Ukrainian government began contesting it when it wanted to break away because those plebiscites can be a little dubious, and Russia contributed to the shenanigans to use it as a pretext for hostilities, like in Georgia with South Ossetia

That's a little difficult to determine. In any case, very large populations in eastern Ukraine are ethnically Russian, but that leaves the question why would Russia involve separatists in a war likely to hurt their own citizens? I feel there is one way or another a strong separation among Ukrainian population that the war in Donbass is a result from, and somehow Russia is using it to its advantage.

There are large parts of Russia that aren't Russian and I don't know if they can leave

Those populations are culturally different, but very strongly pro-state, because they entirely depend on it for survival and even the most difficult form of life they have. Although not a Russian region, look at Kazakhstan and Nazarbayev, its president for life, one if the most prominent friends of Putin's. I imagine all of Russia's region heads hold him in the same regard, at the very least, because Putin props them up financially, and especially the sectors particularly important for each locality, very generously I must say. He's literally "throwing " them money.

 

[summers]

I wish I had the training ans skills that would make me useful over there. I would be on the next plane. Unlike our useless governments, individuals are fighting. Here's a real hero:

TEAM CANADA: Top Canadian sniper hunts invaders in Ukraine war zone

One of Canada's deadliest snipers has now turned his sights on Russian invaders in the killing fields of Ukraine.

torontosun.com

And here's another hero, using his own money to help Ukraine.

A tech executive is privately funding hundreds of soldiers to fight for Ukraine

He’s r/VolunteersForUkraine’s top financial resource.

www.theverge.com

 

[summers]

Watching this made me feel so useless.

Ukrainian UFC fighter delivers emotional plea

 

[GrumpyFrog]

Personally I think the West is already doing a lot for us, and I am grateful for that. Your governments are right about not starting a WWIII. If only there was less burecracy about evenly distributing the massive hordes of refugees rather than leaving countries such as Poland and Moldova overwhelmed and overcrowded, and I'd say that Wests response is super humane and perfectly perfect.

There are large parts of Russia that aren't Russian and I don't know if they can leave.

Well, I'm old enough to remember what happened when Chechnya wanted to leave Russia - there was a war and then another war, even worse than the first one. So no, Russia isn't that nice and supportive towards their own separatists and leaving isn't really and option.

Russian and other European varieties are somewhat organized football hooligans at best, but the ones in Azov are somewhere between military and paramilitary. If the way they are portrayed in Russia as committing all kinds of atrocities, they appear to be a self-interested group of murderers and maraduers. I imagine no different than the kadyrovites (Chechen murderers) Russia deploys. Full fledged maniacal trash.

The interesting thing about Azov batallion is that Russian/pro-Russian forces have already done a great job de-nazifying Ukraine back in 2014-2015. Azov batallion started off kind of like what you described, but then during the worst part of Donetsk/Luhansk war Azov suffered heavy losses and a significant part of their core group of NeoNazis did the best thing they could for the world by becoming fertilizer, while many others who still had their lives and limbs intact realized that war is much less fun that they expected and dragged their asses home. Azov have been gradually getting more and more watered down with more and more far-right assholes either gettting killed or backing out and being replaced by young naive idiots with misguided ideas about heroism for the last 8 years. Majority of guys in Azov at the moment are not really anti-semitists, white supremacists or extreme far-right. I'm not saying that they are good guys doing the right thing, heaven forbid. They are professional murderers and horrible people, and the world would be a be a better place without them. But they are just not as...let's say sensational as Russain media portrays them.
Why are they not outlawed? Well, @whatevs raises a perfectly valid point:

they are tolerated while they are useful militarily and that's it

They were outlawed up to the point when substantial evidence of Russian involvement in the conflict in the East was discovered. Even since then there was a fear of a full-scale invasion from Russia, and if you ever seen Russia on the map, then I think you can understand why the general attitude quickly became "shit, anything goes, release the hounds". (I'm not trying to say that it was the right thing to do, just the general motivation).
Ironically, the only reason why a part of the general population of Ukraine supported either creepy right-aligned paramilitary like Azov or the idea of trying to join NATO was the constant fear of Russia launching full-scale invasion and grasping for anything that could protect us. Both NATO and far-right were super unpopular up until 2014.

 

[Depressed Cat]

The West is in mortal peril. I don't mean they will get annihilated by nukes, but Western civilisation as we know it is in mortal peril.

If Western civilisation is in mortal peril, that means the future of the planet itself is in grave danger! Modern, post WW II Western civilisation is the greatest level of achievement of humankind, far, far better than any "civilisation" that ever existed till now.

It's no coincidence that people from all over the world, from the less evolved and more barbaric societies all seek to migrate to the West, or to countries that have achieved a Western civilisational standard, even if they are not geographically a part of the West. In the absence of any sudden catastrophe, people naturally tend to migrate from the more barbaric societies to the more civilised ones in search of a better life for themselves.

Now, we have the diabolical dictator of a rogue mafiocratic state committing genocide on hapless civilians in a European country, and the West is not doing much to put an immediate end to it.

People like Garry Kasparov and Kamil Galeev have long called Poo-tin's bluff in threatening to unleash nuclear warfare. They are Soviet-born Russians and they very well understand the Russian mentality. They know how the mind of the rogue Russian dictator works, and have been warning the West for years.

Poo-tin will not stop with Ukraine if he achieves his goal in Ukraine. Poo-tin must not be allowed to achieve his goal in Ukraine, period. The only endgame to the barbaric Russian invasion of Ukraine must be the overthrow of the diabolical dictatorships of the rogue regimes of Poo-tin's Russia and Lukashenko's Belarus. Evil must be defeated, evil must be crushed!

It's no secret that Chinese commie dictator Winnie the Pooh had his eyes set on committing genocide on Taiwanese when he saw his fellow dictator-for-life Poo-tin start his genocide of Ukrainians

Xi considered invading Taiwan this fall: FSB whistleblower | Taiwan News | 2022-03-16 11:38:00

Document believed to be leaked from Russian FSB claims Xi considered invading Taiwan in fall for 'little victory to get re-elected' | 2022-03-16 11:38:00

www.taiwannews.com.tw

Winnie the Pooh has been alarmed by the reaction from the West in unitedly sanctioning Russia and by the heroic resistance put up by courageous Ukrainians against the barbaric Russian invaders. Winnie the Pooh has got more brains than the low IQed Russian mafiocrat, so he has postponed his Taiwan invasion plan. I repeat, his own genocidal invasion plan has merely been postponed, not abandoned.

 

[DisillusionedDragon]

"The West" isn't "sitting back and watching".
I don't understand what people like you want. Start the next World War? How is that going to help? All it will do is bring misery to many many more people, that's all wars do.
It's a horrible situation, but the truth is that currently no one has to power to stop what is going on in Ukraine - except one obviously insane dude in Russia.

 

[summers]

the truth is that currently no one has to power to stop what is going on in Ukraine - except one obviously insane dude in Russia.

Sorry, but that's just wrong. NATO could end the Ukraine invasion very quickly. Russia is struggling to gain ground against a much small and less equipped enemy. If NATO got involved, they could assuredly drive the russians out of the country.

 

[DisillusionedDragon]

Sorry, but that's just wrong. NATO could end the Ukraine invasion very quickly. Russia is struggling to gain ground against a much small and less equipped enemy. If NATO got involved, they could assuredly drive the russians out of the country.

And make them shoot their missiles from within Russia, not only devastating Ukraine but many other areas of the world as well? I don't even think they'd be opposed to using nuclear weapons at this point. Russia doesn't own only tanks and short range missiles.

 

[summers]

And make them shoot their missiles from within Russia, not only devastating Ukraine but many other areas of the world as well? I don't even think they'd be opposed to using nuclear weapons at this point. Russia doesn't own only tanks and short range missiles.

Maybe not, but they also know the US has plenty of subs with trident nuclear missiles that will turn Moscow and St. Petersburg into parking lots if they even try that. Keep in mind, Russia has a gdp of $1.5 trillion and population of 144 million people. NATO combined has a gdp of $42.6 trillion and population of 945 million people. They know they don't stand a chance.

 

[Depressed Cat]

Russian nuclear threat by Poo-tin is just a scare tactic to keep the civilised world from militarily confronting his genocidal war criminals in Ukraine, a confrontation that Poo-tin & his cowardly war criminals will most certainly lose!

It's tragic that Western policymakers don't see this as a mere scare tactic by the genocidal megalomaniac.

If one wants to understand the nuclear threat issued by Poo-tin, I suggest this highly insightful thread by Kamil Galeev