Discussion Antinatalism megathread

[Life sucks]

This topic is for the philosophy and logic of antinatalism. No personal attacks or disrespect. Antinatalism welcomes everyone and shows the wrongs of life.

Efilism is welcomed here also. I personally would go further than that and present physical/mathematical/logical to prove how life is inherently wrong.

There are many misconceptions about antinatalism:

1- Antinatalism is just a philosophy:
Nope, antinatalism is a logical conclusion and could show how everything else is wrong or self-contradictory.

2- Antinatalists are depressed or sad people:
Antinatalists are a variety of people with different types of personal details, some antinatalists are happy. There are many ways to reach this conclusion.

3- Parents can't be antinatalists:
Antinatalism welcomes anyone including parents, it would show how life is bad and instead of spreading prolife lies, they'll make sure they help their children in a bad world and respect their choices.

4- Antinatalism is about hating parents or people:
Nope, antinatalism shows how life is inherently bad. Personal emotions are different between people, you could love or hate and reach the same conclusion. There are antinatalists that love their parents and their parents respect their choice.

5- Antinatalism doesn't care about our emotions:
Nope, it cares about the emotions and care about decreasing the suffering. You can feel happy without the need for increasing the suffering.

6- Antinatalism doesn't support anything else:
Actually, antinatalism is a big support for other people like being pro-choice, euthanasia and right to die, LGBT, vegan. It doesn't necessarily mean that every antinatalist is a part of other groups but it supports them and completely understand.

7- Antinatalism is hate speech:
Antinatalism is completely against racism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia and any type of hate. Additionally, Antinatalists could simply prove how life is bad in a peaceful manner with logic and evidence and the hate comes from prolifers, in a similar way to how prolifers deal with suicidal people.

8- Antinatalism supports eugenics:
Nope, antinatalism is against birth completely regardless of genes.

9- Antinatalism is dark or pessimistic:
Antinatalism actually is realistic and would show the reality of life problems instead of ignoring them. People who use this point and #2 are usually doing it as a personal attack.

10- Antinatalism doesn't solve anything:
Wrong, antinatalism exposes every problem within life (and most people would ignore those problems anyway) then presents itself as a solution and supports other types of solutions that reduce the suffering like being pro-choice and it completely understand the suffering and circumstances of each individual. However, actually people don't want to solve those problems and they create more problems to distract themselves from the reality.


Again, this thread is scientific and logical. Please don't turn it into wars, disrespecting and using derogatory terms. There is much deep information, analysis, logic and science and its sad to not share it. People would live way better with knowing the truth and decreasing the suffering. Everyone is welcomed to look at facts and no gatekeeping here. Please use respectful and scientific language as much as possible. The goal is to provide concrete facts, proof and evidence of the wrongs of life in a peaceful way. Antinatalism is all about reducing and eliminating the suffering.

 

[ocd is bad]

I'm not very convinced by antinatalism to be honest. I have no intentions of helping bring a child into this fucked up world and of course I wish that I wasn't born, but I think that the majority of people outside of a suicide-based website don't feel the same way, and would prefer to exist rather than not exist

 

[Life sucks]

I'm not very convinced by antinatalism to be honest. I have no intentions of helping bring a child into this fucked up world and of course I wish that I wasn't born, but I think that the majority of people outside of a suicide-based website don't feel the same way, and would prefer to exist rather than not exist

-There are many non-suicidal antinatalists and actually its used against them as a personal attack "Why you don't ctb then?". There are many who wants to enjoy their life without reproduction.

-The objective truth has nothing to do with what the majority do or feel. The majority are prolife, a life that has wars, hate and many other problems which some of them are inherent and unsolvable. Should we support majority or let them do that just because of outnumbering? We should be rational and view the reality of life and by providing the truth, eventually more people would be aware about life problems which then would reduce the suffering.

 

[Deleted member 17331]

I thought for a long time about how to write about this, and I still feel that I am not able to express it in words, but I will try to do an analysis. I wish from the bottom of my heart not to write anything insensitive/unpleasant and unnecessary, I ask you to alert me if this happens, please.

Much of my perception is based on facts from my country, Brazil. But I hope my text is useful in some way.

I feel and see that birth is something very significant in many cultures, and for many parents. However, not all families are 'mentally healthy'/prepared to care for a child. And yes, there are still countless cases of unwanted pregnancy.

I believe that the issue of the family (parents and children) is still something very idealized and/or fantasized, considered as: a goal, fulfillment and even salvation. Something that the vast majority of people consider to achieve someday. This sounds very beautiful, the family issue can be very beautiful, but do all parents commit to the responsibilities of caring for a child?

Well, everything looks more loving and bright on social media. But on the street/reality, children are working, children are walking around the slums armed, children are being verbally, physically and sexually abused, bullying is still happening in schools, children are still starving, many children do not know what care and love is, as they do not always find parents who are always working, and children who are held accountable very early...

According to the CNJ (Data from the National Council of Justice) there are 5.5 million Brazilian children without their father's name on the birth certificate. In short, there are millions of children who do not know what father love is, children who will grow up without the attention and support of two people who should share the responsibility to commit to the child. Fathers who didn't think and disappeared when the pregnancy came.

According to BBC NEWS BRASIL, more than 55% of Brazilian women who had children had not planned their pregnancy.

When I think about unwanted pregnancy, I remember the scarcity of education. And mainly, sex education in my country. Yes, there are still people who don't know what it is, and how to use a condom. A personal (perhaps important) account, my cousin who lives in Paraguay, gave birth without even knowing she was pregnant. She didn't know she was going to have a child. When I talk about the scarcity of sex education/education, I look not only at my country, but at all countries with high birth rates. The problem is that the scarcity of education is not the only disorder/complication, it is also linked to the culture, poverty, religion and politics of these countries.

Here it is common to see politicians on the news deviating funds that should go to school/education. Religious and conservative politicians against science and against thought. They are making machines. School education is all about only memorizing! Thought, reflection and critical sense are disappearing from schools! And I am sure that this does not exist in other, even poorer countries.

We are growing very fast, nature is being destroyed with enormous speed.

One question: Why not adopt? How many children are waiting for an opportunity in shelters?

I will leave some images for reflection.

"To bear children into this world is like carrying wood to a burning house."

- Peter Wessel Zapffe.​

Gratitude for your time.

 

[Life sucks]

I thought for a long time about how to write about this, and I still feel that I am not able to express it in words, but I will try to do an analysis. I wish from the bottom of my heart not to write anything insensitive/unpleasant and unnecessary, I ask you to alert me if this happens, please.

Much of my perception is based on facts from my country, Brazil. But I hope my text is useful in some way.

I feel and see that birth is something very significant in many cultures, and for many parents. However, not all families are 'mentally healthy'/prepared to care for a child. And yes, there are still countless cases of unwanted pregnancy.

I believe that the issue of the family (parents and children) is still something very idealized and/or fantasized, considered as: a goal, fulfillment and even salvation. Something that the vast majority of people consider to achieve someday. This sounds very beautiful, the family issue can be very beautiful, but do all parents commit to the responsibilities of caring for a child?

Well, everything looks more loving and bright on social media. But on the street/reality, children are working, children are walking around the slums armed, children are being verbally, physically and sexually abused, bullying is still happening in schools, children are still starving, many children do not know what care and love is, as they do not always find parents who are always working, and children who are held accountable very early...

According to the CNJ (Data from the National Council of Justice) there are 5.5 million Brazilian children without their father's name on the birth certificate. In short, there are millions of children who do not know what father love is, children who will grow up without the attention and support of two people who should share the responsibility to commit to the child. Fathers who didn't think and disappeared when the pregnancy came.

According to BBC NEWS BRASIL, more than 55% of Brazilian women who had children had not planned their pregnancy.

When I think about unwanted pregnancy, I remember the scarcity of education. And mainly, sex education in my country. Yes, there are still people who don't know what it is, and how to use a condom. A personal (perhaps important) account, my cousin who lives in Paraguay, gave birth without even knowing she was pregnant. She didn't know she was going to have a child. When I talk about the scarcity of sex education/education, I look not only at my country, but at all countries with high birth rates. The problem is that the scarcity of education is not the only disorder/complication, it is also linked to the culture, poverty, religion and politics of these countries.

Here it is common to see politicians on the news deviating funds that should go to school/education. Religious and conservative politicians against science and against thought. They are making machines. School education is all about only memorizing! Thought, reflection and critical sense are disappearing from schools! And I am sure that this does not exist in other, even poorer countries.

We are growing very fast, nature is being destroyed with enormous speed.

One question: Why not adopt? How many children are waiting for an opportunity in shelters?

I will leave some images for reflection.

"To bear children into this world is like carrying wood to a burning house."

- Peter Wessel Zapffe.​

Gratitude for your time.

Don't worry. You did express very well and nothing wrong.

Thanks for giving a big example of whats wrong in this world.

I'll make a short abstraction about the core problems if you don't mind. The first problem here is how societal programming is different than the biological programming. The society indoctrinates people with many ideas so they continue reproducing and glorify the image while the reality is harsh and many children get abused. In the second which is purely biological, thats how humans were originally as animals, having sex without knowing anything and reproduction occurs with complete ignorance. You proved how both cases brings miserable children to this world, either by being in neglectful and toxic families or just coming to this world as a result of ignorance and random sex then having none to care about them.

Unfortunately many ideologies like religion, culture support having children no matter what happens. To make people reproduce, they will try to make them more ignorant by indoctrinating them with faulty and oppressive ideas.

And yes, if you ask them, why not adopt? They won't answer or say children must be biological and look similar to them. Other children are human too and they need care, ignoring children just because they don't look similar is superficial.

 

[FusRohDracarys]

The whole issue of adoption really irritates me, especially in regards to anti-abortion arguments. Adoption does not equate to a happy ending in many, if not most, cases--and that's only taking into consideration the children who do get adopted, not those who age out of the system. My aunt used to foster kids and even adopted the last two. All of the kids she fostered had so many issues, and even the ones she adopted, who had the benefit of a family who adored and doted on them for being the babies at the time, wound up with some pretty serious issues. One of them basically cannot function as an adult. The adoption system is so broken that it seems an insufficient excuse to bring more life into this world and I hate it when people use the adoption card like some kind of free pass without addressing the realities of the system. While it's better to avoid bringing in new life to the world to begin with, it's still bs to say someone can come into this world with the odds stacked against them and have a fair crack at happiness. Not to say all adoption stories end badly--I've also known a few people who had happy adoptive stories--but for a lot of people, it's a losing system.

 

[Life sucks]

The whole issue of adoption really irritates me, especially in regards to anti-abortion arguments. Adoption does not equate to a happy ending in many, if not most, cases--and that's only taking into consideration the children who do get adopted, not those who age out of the system. My aunt used to foster kids and even adopted the last two. All of the kids she fostered had so many issues, and even the ones she adopted, who had the benefit of a family who adored and doted on them for being the babies at the time, wound up with some pretty serious issues. One of them basically cannot function as an adult. The adoption system is so broken that it seems an insufficient excuse to bring more life into this world and I hate it when people use the adoption card like some kind of free pass without addressing the realities of the system. While it's better to avoid bringing in new life to the world to begin with, it's still bs to say someone can come into this world with the odds stacked against them and have a fair crack at happiness. Not to say all adoption stories end badly--I've also known a few people who had happy adoptive stories--but for a lot of people, it's a losing system.

I don't disagree in a practical sense. Because unfortunately, people could be bad and hurt each other. Its just a way to show the faults of reproduction. Simply put, with adoption, there is no new existing life unlike reproduction which make new ones. If its used as anti-abortion then thats creating a new life and its essentially birth and antinatalism is against it. Most people won't adopt and insist on having biological children which exposes what they really want, a version of themselves. "It looks like you" and "how would we be mixed", it just shows how its superficial and unethical, they bring a new life just to look like them? Then refuse caring about others because they are not related to them?

Not everyone should adopt and unfortunately people are not prochoice to let children choose what they want when they become adults and if they want to continue life or not. Helping some lost children is better than reproducing new ones. I understand what you said, its a bad life and bad humans and unfortunately those are the majority. But at the end, there is no new existing lives with adoption and there should be a way to protect those children and ensure that the people who adopt are good for them, the next step should be prochoice about choosing between life and death.

 

[FusRohDracarys]

I don't disagree in a practical sense. Because unfortunately, people could be bad and hurt each other. Its just a way to show the faults of reproduction. Simply put, with adoption, there is no new existing life unlike reproduction which make new ones. If its used as anti-abortion then thats creating a new life and its essentially birth and antinatalism is against it. Most people won't adopt and insist on having biological children which exposes what they really want, a version of themselves. "It looks like you" and "how would we be mixed", it just shows how its superficial and unethical, they bring a new life just to look like them? Then refuse caring about others because they are not related to them?

Not everyone should adopt and unfortunately people are not prochoice to let children choose what they want when they become adults and if they want to continue life or not. Helping some lost children is better than reproducing new ones. I understand what you said, its a bad life and bad humans and unfortunately those are the majority. But at the end, there is no new existing lives with adoption and there should be a way to protect those children and ensure that the people who adopt are good for them, the next step should be prochoice about choosing between life and death.

I agree, adopting is better than having kids of your own. And in theory, adoption is a great prospect for many people with the potential to be a win-win situation for kids and parents alike, but I was just griping about the way so many people use it as a free pass to justify perpetuating suffering. My partner is one of those abortion is wrong but I want kids and won't adopt types so I tend to keep my mouth shut at home to keep the peace, lol.

 

[Life sucks]

Natalism hides itself under different names like religion, state, economy or capitalism. There are multiple ways to ensure it that uses lies and deception in addition to oppression. One can notice how reproduction is embedded with almost all of those ideas. All of them actually doesn't care about the suffering, they want to increase the population for their own interests.

The state needs more citizens so they pay taxes or force them to join the army and strengthen itself. Ancient empires, colonialists and fascists straightforwardly applied natalism with force, oppressed women and used them as a way to reproduce many children to increase their army and attack different countries around the world. Religion was and still a way to increase natalism for the state and economy, oppressing people mentally and physically to reproduce as much as possible and claiming they would be rewarded while what actually happens is being in poverty while wealth is going elsewhere.

Economy is clearly natalist, the more children, the more consumers and money involved. Suffering and the life of those people doesn't matter to them and all of what they want is more money.

We could see how all those names while being different share one common factor: Natalism. Humans come to this world thats full of embedded natalism and they can't question it easily specially because how oppressive everything else like the religion and state. All of these names and ideas has endless laws and details. Most if not all of those details has no meaning and acts as a filler, you'll see how religion has a lot of topics and how modern laws and system has countless details. When a human can't question natalism because its everywhere and can't question those names and ideas that support it because they have countless details, the result is a human with a lower thinking capabilities or with an oppressed brain that would follow natalism without thinking.

If natalism is right or rational, it shouldn't use oppression as a mechanism to force people to follow it. And that's why, because it lacks rationality, it will use any method to oppress free and scientific thinking.

 

[Fragile]

I was going to write a 10+ paragraph response expressing my grievances and disagreements with antinatalism, my issues with the stereotypical people who say that they support it and also discussing alternatives within the philosophy.

But I just don't have the energy.

Instead I have a hypothetical question:

Say, we have a technology that tells us with 100% accuracy if a creature (including humans) wants to stop existing, and also means to give them a completely and objectively peaceful way to die.
would you still be antinatalists in such world?

 

[agentgeez]

I was going to write a 10+ paragraph response expressing my grievances and disagreements with antinatalism, my issues with the stereotypical people who say that they support it and also discussing alternatives within the philosophy.

But I just don't have the energy.

Instead I have a hypothetical question:

Say, we have a technology that tells us with 100% accuracy if a creature (including humans) wants to stop existing, and also means to give them a completely and objectively peaceful way to die.
would you still be antinatalists in such world?

I'd rather avoid suffering altogether than wait for suffering to appear and then end it, so yes. Also, the machine thing is a little odd to me. Why does it matter if we know with 100% accuracy if somebody wants to die? It's their choice in the end, isn't it? Also, I think the issue goes deeper than just wanting to stop existing or not. People can be suffering a lot but be too afraid of death to go through with suicide. I suppose it's like Stockholm syndrome but for life. Humans willingly take the option that results in more suffering more often than you might think.

 

[Life sucks]

I was going to write a 10+ paragraph response expressing my grievances and disagreements with antinatalism, my issues with the stereotypical people who say that they support it and also discussing alternatives within the philosophy.

But I just don't have the energy.

Instead I have a hypothetical question:

Say, we have a technology that tells us with 100% accuracy if a creature (including humans) wants to stop existing, and also means to give them a completely and objectively peaceful way to die.
would you still be antinatalists in such world?

This technology is impossible even in a hypothetical sense (see Entscheidungsproblem which this problem is a practical example of it) and how actually "want" have many problems:

1) "Want" could change in a practical sense and its not static, one human may want something then change their mind, their "want" doesn't exist also before birth and after death.

2) In a theoretical sense its a human word and a construct and doesn't describe what really happens within the body. What happens within us isn't "wanting" but a complicated biological/chemical process and each "want" is different.

I understand that you have no energy, I have no energy and I'm filled with pain. This is a suicidal forum after all. Its up to you but if it makes your health worse then I suggest you to stop specially how you are mentioning that you won't change your mind.

You shouldn't mix topics/ideas with communities, people and stereotyping. Look at the matter of the topic rather than associating it with a certain community. Most human communities would share the same toxic behavior, so don't take it personally.

 

[Alucard]

See the great antinatalist Theophile de Giraud on Youtube. "Not to be" is a right, as he says.

 

[XYZ]

I wouldn't have to put up with any of this shit if I didn't exist. The only cure for me is death. For future kids who grow up to be fucked up adults, the only cure is antinatalism.

 

[EmbraceOfTheVoid]

This thread had some good information in the past before @WhyIsLife56 disappeared

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/life-and-existence-is-a-burden.28227/page-4#post-553505

From that thread:

for countless of hundreds of millions of years (maybe even more than that). With humans or without humans. With capitalism or without capitalism. Why? One of the laws of thermodynamics some people don´t know exist but maybe is one (if not **the**) most powerful in our universe is **entropy**. What is it? Well, it basically consists of the fact that it is easier to break something than fix something. It´s easier to create and spread a plague than cure it. It´s easier to write a corrupt law for your own benefits than to create a good one with no loopholes. It´s easier to take a good life than a evil life. You see this in action in our universe constantly because shit breaks contantly, but nothing **ever** miraculously improves. Have you ever noticed that?

This, collaborating with the existence of natural selection and game theory, has given birth to a psychopathic (evil) and psychotic (delusional, strongly prone to optimism bias, wishful thinking, false beliefs, etc) species. We enslave those weaker than thus, both [animals](https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko?t=3315) and humans, the majority of which are forced to work shitty labor jobs, with a childhood involving neglect, trauma, ostracism, bullying, and a generally poor quality of life. This is the 'pulse' of our species, we abuse our children, teenagers and the weak and traumatize them to have the same evil, systematic nature we have. Note: this is **not** exclusive to humans; you can see this sort of behavior in lions, tigers, and other great predators that exhibit this kind of evil behavior, even if irrationally. And the worse is that I believe if another animal species raised to sentience and became "advanced", they would be the same as us.

Let us say, just imagine if having actual concern for humanity or life is even possible with the idea of extreme success as a CEO or high-ranking corporate figure. It's just complete fantasy. The degree to which this is a fantasy, is like someone saying "An antelope could be just as successful being a carnivore as a Lion can." You simply don't arrive at the positions in those places without being 'carnivorous' towards human beings. Because if you were, you would suffer from the same thing that natural selection punishes a Lion that sucks at killing things would suffer from-- you'd just starve and die, because this is a [**competition**](https://youtu.be/95c5GTp__AU). A kind, benevolent, caring, concerned, charitable CEO would just get eaten alive. The laws of biology(which, **reminder**: Human beings are subject to) and the laws of physics, **prevent** good people from becoming CEO's or high ranking corporate figures. It's simply the way the universe works.

Evil **always** works its way to the top in **any** system given enough time-- there's no other way for it not to, in a competition game which says, "The *sneakiest*, most *dominant*, selfish person climbs, while the most *honest*, most *humble* and *selfless* person gets climbed on."

Entropy constantly empowers that which is empowered by virtue of being the perfect distillation of evil, like the Lion, like the predator, like the apex psychopath who is, has always, and will always sit on the throne of all sentient systems in this block of spacetime moving towards greater entropy. Evil thrives once it achieves power because the powerless must work against entropy, where evil only plows forward exhibiting its nature effortlessly. Good must go *against* nature to be good. Evil does not need to do anything special to go *with* nature.

I know this is gonna be a long read, but it is needed to explain the hellish conditions we are in this universe. The problem is **not** capitalism, the problem is **not** humanity itself, the problem will **never** be what the majority of people tell you the true cause of all problems and all the suffering in this world the is nature and the laws of the universe we exist in. It uproots evil and gives it a way to conquer good and use it for its advantage. **This** is the reality that Disney and most media tries to obfuscate to you with systematically spread happy ending stories, even politics and other distractions are there to obfuscate the hellworld that we live in. People have always been trying to find a problem, when the problem is simple: we are in *Hell.*

Almost no one holds this reality up for examination daily. We are allergic. Most of us have near-zero understanding of the gravity, and those who have glimmers, ignore this fact about the quality of our reality because it's not conducive to living another day. Why must we live another day? Because genes which give rise to culture, all of which is determined by game theory which more or less says, "Psychopathy wins and holds dominion over this game". Natural selection is a game where evil wins, not good. Good is kept around for the purpose of evil wearing it's skin like a mask. Good is not adaptive, in the precise way that the cow in cow hell has no adaptive trait. It's alive. It will bear children. Those children will bear children. But nothing "adaptive" is going on. How? The fact of the matter is, a psychopathic species has kept the herbivore alive for its own gain. This is the precise relationship that evil has to goodness. Goodness is kept alive. Buddhism is kept alive. Any genuine benevolent religious idea, is kept alive. All because evil, which is powerfully [camouflaged](https://i.imgur.com/ri1sTPL.gifv),dominates reality and presses onto it in a way which goodness can never overcome.

There´s *even more* material that I could just keep elaborating on, but the true information is that this life is some kind of evil dystopian hell with no winning moves, because almost all of them empower evil. The worse is that we are delusional evil apes that evolved with brains to blind us to the true, *crushing* gravity of the situation we found ourselves into in this spherical concentration camp. If we were to take our delusional apes glasses off and truly take enough time to analyze our circumstances here on Earth, we would just yell **HOLY FUCKING SHIT** and jump off a window. If everyone was truly aware of *how* bad things are, suicide rates would skyrocket worldwide. Everyone would be killing each other, and everyone would be killing themselves. It would be a suicide epidemic of *biblical* proportions. And everyone would be doing it, not just the poor people, but the CEO´S and other powerful "kings" of Earth, because even **they** would be horrified with the revelation.

TL;DR: Life´s even worse than you think and we are in Hell.

 

[TAW122]

Thanks for making this thread @Life sucks and those are some great points debunking the misconception of antinatalism.

 

[WhatDoesTheFoxSay?]

Bump. Realised it's been half a year since the last post.

Anti-childbirth poster found on NTU campus described childbirth as 'tragedy of life'

This is just for laughs. I don't believe in shoving anything down anyone's throat.

 

[loopylou]

Bump lol

 

[Alucard]

 

[orange]

Bump

 

[TheHatedOne]

Just by my life experiences I decided to become an antinatalist. I was rereading an article from my blog today in which I wrote about the time when I attempted to run away from home because of my abusive parents. The fact that some people like me were unlucky enough to be born in abusive families and then have to resort to such extreme measures...

My life has been non stop torture. I'm not going to bring someone else into this bullshit called life that thrives on suffering, abuse and misery.

 

[Death is beautiful]

"Sleep is good
death is better
but of course it's best never to be born"

I envy those who have never been born and have not experienced this meaningless and ugly life

 

[Mixo]

Just by my life experiences I decided to become an antinatalist. I was rereading an article from my blog today in which I wrote about the time when I attempted to run away from home because of my abusive parents. The fact that some people like me were unlucky enough to be born in abusive families and then have to resort to such extreme measures...

My life has been non stop torture. I'm not going to bring someone else into this bullshit called life that thrives on suffering, abuse and misery.

Like you, I also have had to endure significant amounts of child abuse. It certainly is a potent argument for antinatalism, although I hesitate to identify myself as such.

I just see the choice of having children at this point in humanity's existence to be pretty irrational, given the direction the world is headed in. You can be the absolute best parent in the world and your child could still end up suffering - at the hands of other humans, no doubt or by violence, illness, abuse, and other hardships I can only imagine. All for what - so I can selfishly prioritze passing on my genes for another generation before as the earth radidly becomes inhabitable and very likely will be wiped out in 100 years or less? No thanks.