Story Another example reinforcing my anti-natalistic stance (story included)

[TAW122]

Maybe I might be an asshole for thinking this way, but I don't know if others see things the way I see them. So here is the story.

The Couple (Unexpectedly) Having a child:
There is a couple that I was friends with (not really anymore and rarely talk to them ever since they moved away and such), and they are super religious, very pro-life, anti-choice, anti-abortion, anti-voluntary euthanasia, just pretty much everything that we are for (our values) they oppose and then some more. They are also intellectually dishonest, hypocritical, and also judgmental, and are missionaries in training, hoping to spread pro-life and religious dogma across the world, especially in areas that are non-Christian. Anyways, the wife became pregnant and is having a baby later this year. Both of them are surprised and aren't expecting it. The couple are not only attending seminary (basically like a school for people working to become pastors, religious leaders, and missionaries), but also doing mission work (spreading pro-life spiel and religious dogma) as well as going overseas to do so during summer breaks. I could get into all the bullshit that they spew but I'm not since I'm just going to focus on the story and my two cents. As a result of their discovery, they have announced it to the people they know and more. Their parents are very excited (of course, usual pro-natalist people and pro-life people, nothing surprising here) and are looking forward to it. They are still going to school, both husband and wife as they are planning to go around various parts of the world to plant churches, spread religious dogma around the non-religious areas and what not. Since they are super religious (more so than just about anyone I know, barring some pastors and what not), they are going to likely be very authoritarian and impose their teachings and views on their child (well, legally they are parents so they are in charge). In the next paragraph, I explain why I don't approve of their decision and don't agree with it.

I guess if anything (sorry if I sound like an asshole for saying this but this is just my two cents), their future 'kid' (or kids if they have more than one) will suffer immensely and if not, probably spread pro-life spiel and suffering towards other beings as well as trying to push the world towards an natalistic, pro-life, anti-choice society, and reinforcing the evils that exist in present day. In parts of the Internet and around the world, there is a saying that "Please don't breed" and I would agree with whoever said it in that context as imposing life on a sentient being that has yet to come without their agreement or say it just wrong. The (future) sentient being never consented to being 'born'. Mind you, I'm not going to take any action against them, but this is just one of my rants and my opinion on why I don't approve of their decision. Alternatively, it is possible that their child (or children if they have more than one kid) will grow up, gain understanding of how the world is, and make their own decisions and come to the conclusion that the world sucks, it's full of suffering, and that no individual ever 'chose' life but are rather imposed life. Perhaps this future kid (or kids) may also come to an anti-natalist point of view and/or may support assisted suicide and break free of the brainwashing, the indoctrination (I have seen a lot of former believers, theists, become atheists or at least agnostic, Matt Dillahunty (The guy who is the host of The Atheist Experience) is one such example)

I'm sure if @WhyIsLife56 is around, she'd agree with me as well.

 

[Epsilon0]

Hello @thrw_a_way1221221

I understand your frustration, but I think it's innevitable. All parents pass their beliefs and values on to their children. Think of all the toddlers wearing "Metallica forever" onesies :-)

 

[TAW122]

Yeah, I just got news of this in the recent week so I figured I'd share my story as it has reinforced my anti-natalistic point of view. I suppose one could only hope for the best and that's really all we can do. As for them, I guess as long as they don't try to dictate how others live their lives, then they can choose how they wish to raise their child (or children). I personally don't plan to have any kids for the reasons I've listed too.

 

[Life sucks]

I really like your posts and natalism is shitty and it ignores the problems and everything wrong within life. Not to mention how faulty is the human biology and how toxic a human can be, increasing the shit is a bad idea. All of religions and any other beliefs alongside many of the world distractions are meant for programming humans and making them ignorant and the more ignorance and absurdity, the more natalism and humans coming to this shitty world to suffer again.

 

[Epsilon0]

Anti-natalism is a philosophy that will never prevail with the masses, or induce people to stop procreating.

Firstly because our biological drive to reproduce is far too strong, and secondly because humans blindly hope that their offsprings will have good life, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

There's a quote from David Benatar which speaks to me, due to the fact that I am a chronic pain sufferer.

He says, a propos anti-natalism: "There's such a thing as chronic pain, but there's no such thing as chronic pleasure."

 

[a.n.kirillov]

Come on you don't have to apologize, you're preaching to the choir ;-)

Problem with Antinatalists is they tend go extinct pretty quickly that's why no one raises their kids an antinatalist.

Yeah what are you gonna do? Stupid people gonna be stupid. By the way, dillahunty is opposed to antinatalism on pretty much the same ridiculous beliefs as the theists; he recently did a video on it.
.

That said I enjoyed dillahunty and the atheism show thing for a long time; the whole edgy snarky atheist thing just gets boring after a while considering that it's such an easy conclusion to come to; but living in Texas where the average IQ seems to be no higher than 65, I guess it makes you feel iamverysmart

 

[Epsilon0]

you're preaching to the choir ;-)

But the choir loves the gospel of anti-natalism, so please, do go on.

 

[TAW122]

@Life sucks Yeah and until the world is a better place (which is almost never likely to happen due to the nature of humans and just mother nature itself sometimes), there is no need to bring more future sentient beings into existence.

Problem with Antinatalists is they tend go extinct pretty quickly that's why no one raises their kids an antinatalist.

Yeah what are you gonna do? Stupid people gonna be stupid. By the way, dillahunty is opposed to antinatalism on pretty much the same ridiculous beliefs as the theists; he recently did a video on it.

True, therefore, for future sentient beings (the ones who are brought into this world by natalists) may have to find enlightenment and anti-natalism through their own. Given that antinatalists do go extinct, at least before we go 'extinct' we should spread the message and philosophy around for others to find it. Also, yes I've realized that and it's a bit sad about it. Eye Doubt (another YouTuber) made a video refuting Dillahunty's opposition towards anti-natalism.

 

[Majin K.]

As ironic as it may sound, just because I'm pro suicide doesn't mean that I'm anti natalist. In fact regarding abortion I tend to take a pro life view as taking away the entire life of a human being, just because you don't want sacrifice 9 months of your own life does seem very selfish to me. The West isn't to blame for the world's over population problem. Even if the baby gets thrown into orphanages or foster care families later on, we are in no position to judge whether or not such a life is worth living. I don't believe that life is a gift or that it's inherently positive, but I do believe that anti natalism is a heavily biased view. Of course the main argument for anti natalism is that it erases the chances of creating more tormented souls like us, but at the same it also prevents setting more souls into this world who do enjoy the human condition.

Come on you don't have to apologize, you're preaching to the choir ;-)

Problem with Antinatalists is they tend go extinct pretty quickly that's why no one raises their kids an antinatalist.

Yeah what are you gonna do? Stupid people gonna be stupid. By the way, dillahunty is opposed to antinatalism on pretty much the same ridiculous beliefs as the theists; he recently did a video on it.
.

That said I enjoyed dillahunty and the atheism show thing for a long time; the whole edgy snarky atheist thing just gets boring after a while considering that it's such an easy conclusion to come to; but living in Texas where the average IQ seems to be no higher than 65, I guess it makes you feel iamverysmart

Pretty much everyone who disapproves of life script 1.0 gets sorted out by natural selection. If humanity only consisted of anti natalists, people who hate kids, MGTOWs and radical feminists then oh boy would we go extinct immediately.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

As ironic as it may sound, just because I'm pro suicide doesn't mean that I'm anti natalist. In fact regarding abortion I tend to take a pro life view as taking away the entire life of a human being, just because you don't want sacrifice 9 months of your own life does seem very selfish to me. The West isn't to blame for the world's over population problem. Even if the baby gets thrown into orphanages or foster care families later on, we are in no position to judge whether or not such a life is worth living. I don't believe that life is a gift or that it's inherently positive, but I do believe that anti natalism is a heavily biased view. Of course the main argument for anti natalism is that it erases the chances of creating more tormented souls like us, but at the same it also prevents setting more souls into this world who do enjoy the human condition.

Pretty much everyone who disapproves of life script 1.0 gets sorted out by natural selection. If humanity only consisted of anti natalists, people who hate kids, MGTOWs and radical feminists then oh boy would we go extinct immediately.

I mean I would be interested what would happen with an isolated country with very high prosperity and high education standarts and lots of free time for anyone.

Since the birthrates of prosperous countries with high levels of education are on the majority negative.

 

[Majin K.]

I mean I would be interested what would happen with an isolated country with very high prosperity and high education standarts and lots of free time for anyone.

Since the birthrates of prosperous countries with high levels of education are on the majority negative.

I would argue it mainly has to do with the education of women. First world countries have low birth rates, because women both don't have time for children and can pursue careers other than being a stay at home mom. lol

 

[TAW122]

Just had another thought about this recently...

Many believers would oftenly claim that it is God's plan and intention to create a child, but I simply don't believe this because it takes two sentient human beings exercising their free will to natural, biological intercourse in order for a chance of procreation to happen. As an atheist, I believe it is the sperm from a male human finding the egg from a female human being to conceive another human being. I believe the religious couple exercised their free will and made a conscious decision (through lust and love for each other) and had intercourse and then the wife became a pregnant (by-product) as a result of the intercourse. Sure, one could always argue that God did xyz, God made them fall in love, God made them have the hormones and chemical reactions that result in being aroused, etc., but that's a cop-out, by ignoring the details and simply just putting "God" in front of anything as an explanation (that's another topic for another thread though).

Simply put, you can't claim that you are exercising free will and also that it's a part of God's plan. It's just not logically sound or consistent at all, rather contradictory. If it was God's plan, then it is deterministic and there is NO free will in the matter as everything that was going to happen would happen. If it is free will, thus not God's plan, then everything that happens is a result of the choices that they made previous or in present day as well.

With all that said, I am still an anti-natalist and on those grounds alone, I would not do what they do because I don't believe it is right to bring another sentient being into this world who has no say in whether it wishes to be (exist). Also, with the condition of the world and reality of the world, it's all suffering and then (eventual) death. I don't wish to bring additional sentient beings into suffering.

Note: I am just bringing this thought up because of the logical inconsistency I oftenly hear religious people use. I am NOT going to argue with them nor am I going to raise any objection to it, but I simply cannot resist NOT seeing the logical fallacy and inconsistency in logic that I decided to point it out. I'm sure there are others on here that also think alike and/or see it in similar ways too.

 

[Majin K.]

Just had another thought about this recently...

Many believers would oftenly claim that it is God's plan and intention to create a child, but I simply don't believe this because it takes two sentient human beings exercising their free will to natural, biological intercourse in order for a chance of procreation to happen. As an atheist, I believe it is the sperm from a male human finding the egg from a female human being to conceive another human being. I believe the religious couple exercised their free will and made a conscious decision (through lust and love for each other) and had intercourse and then the wife became a pregnant (by-product) as a result of the intercourse. Sure, one could always argue that God did xyz, God made them fall in love, God made them have the hormones and chemical reactions that result in being aroused, etc., but that's a cop-out, by ignoring the details and simply just putting "God" in front of anything as an explanation (that's another topic for another thread though).

Simply put, you can't claim that you are exercising free will and also that it's a part of God's plan. It's just not logically sound or consistent at all, rather contradictory. If it was God's plan, then it is deterministic and there is NO free will in the matter as everything that was going to happen would happen. If it is free will, thus not God's plan, then everything that happens is a result of the choices that they made previous or in present day as well.

With all that said, I am still an anti-natalist and on those grounds alone, I would not do what they do because I don't believe it is right to bring another sentient being into this world who has no say in whether it wishes to be (exist). Also, with the condition of the world and reality of the world, it's all suffering and then (eventual) death. I don't wish to bring additional sentient beings into suffering.

Note: I am just bringing this thought up because of the logical inconsistency I oftenly hear religious people use. I am NOT going to argue with them nor am I going to raise any objection to it, but I simply cannot resist NOT seeing the logical fallacy and inconsistency in logic that I decided to point it out. I'm sure there are others on here that also think alike and/or see it in similar ways too.

You can't win against religious people. To religious people life is just a test and if you're a good person, you'll go to heaven. A relatively short life of suffering would be irrelevant compared to an eternity in paradise. Anti natalism will only ever make sense from a nihilistic atheist perspective. Anti natalism and religion are so incompatible that even bringing up the subject to a religious person, no matter how open minded you believe them to be, is utterly pointless and a waste of time.

 

[TheSoulless]

I'm so fed up with natalists, pro-lifers, theists... It's like their stupidity knows no end.