An allegory for the way our society treats suicide

[Suicideisnirvana]

Imagine if you felt acute physical pain, an ailment so intense it made your body shiver from pain, then there is a very incompetent, dumb village "doctor" who tells you "Don't do it, it would be dumb to kill yourself while there is a solution for you" and then he proceeds to give you one herbal remedy after another to treat the illness.

The doctor IMHO has no right to prevent you from suicide in any cases, but at least if he had a remedy for your ailment, the call to not kill yourself would be understandable.

In the same vein, if we knew how to make everyone happy or content or at least have a decent or at least NOT HELLISH life (be it physical or mental), society could command people to not kill themselves before trying that remedy.

But our society is like that incompetent, dumb doctor, IT HAS NOTHING TO OFFER, we don't even know what depression is (some people in this forum for instance, would contest "depression" as some mental illness and would say their sentiment is a normal reaction to their sitty life), and even if we agree about depression, the pills doctors offer are as effective AS WALKING THREE TIMES A WEEK for fuck sake, that record is worse than the record of some herbal remedies, yet society have the audacity, pomposity, and presumption to force people to abstain from chosing a painless exist.

 

[TiredHorse]

The way I see it, telling someone who is suicidal to "hold on, life will get better," is akin to telling a drowning man that if he just keeps his head under water a little longer, a really pretty fish might swim past and make the view worthwhile.

 

[52shriek]

The way I see it, telling someone who is suicidal to "hold on, life will get better," is akin to telling a drowning man that if he just keeps his head under water a little longer, a really pretty fish might swim past and make the view worthwhile.

Genius quote right there

 

[bigj75]

The way I see it, telling someone who is suicidal to "hold on, life will get better," is akin to telling a drowning man that if he just keeps his head under water a little longer, a really pretty fish might swim past and make the view worthwhile.

The only thing about that in my opinion is that some people really can overcome depression. Some get better and some don't. So in my opinion it's best to atleast be positive and tell people they can possibly beat it. But of course prolifers don't like to be realistic so they act like everyone can overcome anything nomatter what. Which is bullshit.

 

[Suicideisnirvana]

The only thing about that in my opinion is that some people really can overcome depression. Some get better and some don't. So in my opinion it's best to atleast be positive and tell people they can possibly beat it. But of course prolifers don't like to be realistic so they act like everyone can overcome anything nomatter what. Which is bullshit.

I agree that some people can overcome depression, but the situation is way more complicated than that. For instance those who give an advice makes the assumption that suffering is worth it as long as when you reach a certain state you reflectively feel content and approve of your life. But that doesn't change the present suffering, the way i see it

Individual A Suffer hell for 30 years but after that he feels okayish.

Well, individual A at 20 years old and individual 30 years old are very different in many aspects, the contentment of Individual A when he's 40 years old doesn't change the fact that an individual different from him in many aspects (and similar in other) did LIVE HELL.

It doesn't seem that obvious to me that had he killed himself to only have 10 years of HELL instead of 30 is worse than suffering hell for another 20 years AND THEN feeling better.

For negative utilitarians like me (avoiding suffering must have precedence over gaining pleasure), him CTB and not going through 20 years of hell is better.

The only way where this reasoning makes sense to me is if there is hope IN THE SHORT TERM or with an acceptable level of suffering that doesn't surpass a certain threshold. But at a certain level of suffering, the uncertain contentment that you may have 10 years from now is just nort worth it compared to the sacrifices you have to make to just HOPE for it. I think it's just our instinctual craving for life and survival mechanisms that makes this ridiculous deal seems acceptable.

 

[Crazy I]

The only thing about that in my opinion is that some people really can overcome depression. Some get better and some don't. So in my opinion it's best to atleast be positive and tell people they can possibly beat it. But of course prolifers don't like to be realistic so they act like everyone can overcome anything nomatter what. Which is bullshit.

I think having pro lifers in a society is a little bit better than some religious fanatic like in my society, i grew up having people told me that suicide is frowned upon just because you stole the god's right to end you. Here only god can decide where and when you die so suicide is really frowned upon and viewed as an act of cowardice. Yet some of those people support terrorism and did not view that as an act of suicide. Friggin hypocrite.

 

[Lifeisatrap]

Depression is a rational responce to life.

 

[bigj75]

Depression is a rational responce to life.

Yes.

When life gets too overwhelming and just wipes you out. Suicide is a logical solution to it.

 

[TAW122]

This is a great post, and analogy. I love it. It gets straight to the point and is logical.

The way I see it, telling someone who is suicidal to "hold on, life will get better," is akin to telling a drowning man that if he just keeps his head under water a little longer, a really pretty fish might swim past and make the view worthwhile.

Another problem with pro-lifers having that logic is that they make their 'opinion' into 'facts' when it is simply just an opinion and not a fact. Then they try to impose their values and will on you, which is going too far.

 

[Crazy I]

This is a great post, and analogy. I love it. It gets straight to the point and is logical.



Another problem with pro-lifers having that logic is that they make their 'opinion' into 'facts' when it is simply just an opinion and not a fact. Then they try to impose their values and will on you, which is going too far.

I agree with that, i also have seen some pro lifers in my country tried to make smoking illegal just because they felt that smoking is a kind of suicide but with a slow method. Its like what the hell man, its just smoke its not like they are taking drugs to get high. On and btw i dont care if they use some kind of meth or whatever to get high, but in my country because of poverty the kind of "drugs" that most people use are the crazy variant like they would boil a tampon and use the water to get high, eating some kind of drugs for sick dogs, or even inhaling glue that used on some kind of wood working. So yeah getting high is illegal in my country because most people did not use nirmal drugs like meth or marijuana or anything like that but those outlandish "drugs".

 

[MAIO]

Imagine if you felt acute physical pain, an ailment so intense it made your body shiver from pain, then there is a very incompetent, dumb village "doctor" who tells you "Don't do it, it would be dumb to kill yourself while there is a solution for you" and then he proceeds to give you one herbal remedy after another to treat the illness.

The doctor IMHO has no right to prevent you from suicide in any cases, but at least if he had a remedy for your ailment, the call to not kill yourself would be understandable.

In the same vein, if we knew how to make everyone happy or content or at least have a decent or at least NOT HELLISH life (be it physical or mental), society could command people to not kill themselves before trying that remedy.

But our society is like that incompetent, dumb doctor, IT HAS NOTHING TO OFFER, we don't even know what depression is (some people in this forum for instance, would contest "depression" as some mental illness and would say their sentiment is a normal reaction to their sitty life), and even if we agree about depression, the pills doctors offer are as effective AS WALKING THREE TIMES A WEEK for fuck sake, that record is worse than the record of some herbal remedies, yet society have the audacity, pomposity, and presumption to force people to abstain from chosing a painless exist.

If you go to a doctor in certain countries they actually recommend exercise before trying antidepressants.

The only thing about that in my opinion is that some people really can overcome depression. Some get better and some don't. So in my opinion it's best to atleast be positive and tell people they can possibly beat it. But of course prolifers don't like to be realistic so they act like everyone can overcome anything nomatter what. Which is bullshit.

I would not have a problem with people saying you can possibly beat this. I have a problem with doctors/the general public saying depression is due to a specific lack of x even though they should know that isn't true. For Gods sake the drugs that treat depression either raise or LOWER chemical x. Not only are they lying to other and or themselves, they are telling you, you need something that is as effective as walking 3 times a week. There are other issues as well like taking antidepressants for an extended period actually cause a chemical imbalance.

 

[Suicideisnirvana]

If you go to a doctor in certain countries they actually recommend exercise before trying antidepressants.



I would not have a problem with people saying you can possibly beat this. I have a problem with doctors/the general public saying depression is due to a specific lack of x even though they should know that isn't true. For Gods sake the drugs that treat depression either raise or LOWER chemical x. Not only are they lying to other and or themselves, they are telling you, you need something that is as effective as walking 3 times a week. There are other issues as well like taking antidepressants for an extended period actually cause a chemical imbalance.

And ?

Exercise is also not very effective. and i meant to emphasise that, not to say "Hey, why don't they recommand exercice, it's very effective"

Again, there is a difference between you "can", and "suicide should be prohibited, you can ALWAYS become happy", or "you "will"," the weak, ineffective, incompetent means, methods and advice that society proposes are those of an incompetent, absolutely incompatible with the confident language, abject presumption and authoritarian interference they use.