Discussion Abortion clinic? Why not Suicide clinic?

[OnlyOneSolution]

Without taking a stance on abortion, I want to bring up a thought I've had for some time. There are abortion clinics all over the place. Planned Parenthood, government subsidies, private practices...drop in and have your wish granted. Leave without your perceived problem. There are many arguments about whether these involve death or simply choice. A person is given a chance to make an informed decision, to make a choice, however controversial.

So why not provide an EOL clinic, a place where an adult can make an informed decision, a choice. Planned EOL, government subsidies, private practices. They could require a series of appointments including initial consultation, planning, and scheduling for an official date. Call it a cooling off period to make sure it is a final intelligent decision. Have intervention resources available to give people an opportunity to work around a circumstantial, emotion-based urge to escape in the moment. But, for people like me and so many on this site, allow us to make an informed decision, a choice to say, "I've dealt with this desire for years...I AM DONE!" Call it sanctioned or assisted or whatever label society wants to put on it. They could provide services for wills, property disposal, and other tidying-up activities that most suicides never address. Usually, these are messy details the families are forced to handle.

Allow a person to enter into a controlled, non-violent, guaranteed dignified death.

I'd like to hear input on what you all think. (Please don't make this a discussion about abortion.)

 

[kat6]

I think those are completely different things. But without getting into that…

I agree with you that there should be options to legally end your life peacefully with medical assistance…

Honestly though, call me a cynical, conspiracy theorist, but I think big pharma is one of the main reasons that's not a thing. They make sooo much money off of end of life, extending agonizing terminal illnesses, etc. it's sickening, but I think most of healthcare nowadays is a business, and a peaceful/ quick EOL is just not as lucrative.

 

[LapseInTime]

What's the secret of Soylent green? In all seriousness, this would be ideal; a service where you can put all your affairs in order and ctb peacefully. Yet again, that would require immense changes in the background; the system does not work like that, why let you ctb when they can try, again and again, to make you "productive" while sucking off every last bit of savings you have. If the state has invested 1 dollar in you, they naturally would not want to see you just take off.

 

[PromisedLand]

The comparison of abortion and suicide really does not sit well with me. Abortion doesn't really need much regulation (just make sure the pregnant person is giving uncoerced informed consent, and the procedure is performed safely), whereas assisted suicide needs a bit more.

I don't think there should be separate clinics for suicide - I think that regular doctors and hospitals need to learn to respect patient autonomy and provide such services (same with abortion, but that's another matter). As for the other side of this (e.g. services to help with "tidying up"), I feel that is monetizing suicide, and that makes me a bit uncomfortable. I cringe at the thought of private companies being able to make a fortune out of assisting people to exercise what should be their human right. It's already cringy enough just how much the "death" industry is worth (burial/ cremation costs, funerals, sorting out wills...). Much better that people can just approach their family doctor to start this conversation, and be referred within the "standard" health system. (That said, I'm not sure this would work in the US, where apparently everything depends on insurance?)

 

[OnlyOneSolution]

I think those are completely different things. But without getting into that…

I agree with you that there should be options to legally end your life peacefully with medical assistance…

Honestly though, call me a cynical, conspiracy theorist, but I think big pharma is one of the main reasons that's not a thing. They make sooo much money off of end of life, extending agonizing terminal illnesses, etc. it's sickening, but I think most of healthcare nowadays is a business, and a peaceful/ quick EOL is just not as lucrative.

So charge us. We don't need money if we get dignity.

 

[PromisedLand]

So charge us. We don't need money if we get dignity.

What about the people who literally do not have money though? Not a situation I'm in personally, but I've seen people here worried about the cost of SN, because they are so broke.

 

[OnlyOneSolution]

The comparison of abortion and suicide really does not sit well with me. Abortion doesn't really need much regulation (just make sure the pregnant person is giving uncoerced informed consent, and the procedure is performed safely), whereas assisted suicide needs a bit more.

I don't think there should be separate clinics for suicide - I think that regular doctors and hospitals need to learn to respect patient autonomy and provide such services (same with abortion, but that's another matter). As for the other side of this (e.g. services to help with "tidying up"), I feel that is monetizing suicide, and that makes me a bit uncomfortable. I cringe at the thought of private companies being able to make a fortune out of assisting people to exercise what should be their human right. It's already cringy enough just how much the "death" industry is worth (burial/ cremation costs, funerals, sorting out wills...). Much better that people can just approach their family doctor to start this conversation, and be referred within the "standard" health system. (That said, I'm not sure this would work in the US, where apparently everything depends on insurance?)

I posed the discussion question to get feedback. I like what you have to say. I would like to see it materialize regardless of the external look. Whether as a clinic or a quiet practice in the local medical facility, I just want it to be made available.

What's the secret of Soylent green? In all seriousness, this would be ideal; a service where you can put all your affairs in order and ctb peacefully. Yet again, that would require immense changes in the background; the system does not work like that, why let you ctb when they can try, again and again, to make you "productive" while sucking off every last bit of savings you have. If the state has invested 1 dollar in you, they naturally would not want to see you just take off.

True. But the current alternative is the messy, sometimes bloody, undignified scenes tragically found by undeserving family members. Society is left to mop up the aftermath of the successful escapes of those bold enough to just do it.

I think those are completely different things. But without getting into that…

I agree with you that there should be options to legally end your life peacefully with medical assistance…

Honestly though, call me a cynical, conspiracy theorist, but I think big pharma is one of the main reasons that's not a thing. They make sooo much money off of end of life, extending agonizing terminal illnesses, etc. it's sickening, but I think most of healthcare nowadays is a business, and a peaceful/ quick EOL is just not as lucrative.

F*** big pharma. I am down with government subsidies if that is what it takes.

 

[sevennn]

trust me. once there are a shitton of people in this world and no breathing room. no one will care for "saving poor suicidal lives" anymore. mask off. and people will support euthanasia. that's what i think.

 

[OnlyOneSolution]

What about the people who literally do not have money though? Not a situation I'm in personally, but I've seen people here worried about the cost of SN, because they are so broke.

1) Government subsidies 2) Life savings 3) Even if 100% cannot access it, 50% is better than 0 to start with 4) If it is available, sacrifice the comforts of life and planning for the future so you can earn enough to afford it. It is final.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think basically- because some would-be parents don't want children but other parents are utterly desperate to hold on to their children. No matter how old they are and how much they are suffering. I imagine it's parents who put up the most opposition to assisted suicide being more readily available.

 

[OnlyOneSolution]

trust me. once there are a shitton of people in this world and no breathing room. no one will care for "saving poor suicidal lives" anymore. mask off. and people will support euthanasia. that's what i think.

Let me know when they start looking for volunteers.

I think basically- because some would-be parents don't want children but other parents are utterly desperate to hold on to their children. No matter how old they are and how much they are suffering. I imagine it's parents who put up the most opposition to assisted suicide being more readily available.

...assuming of course that if this option were available, would they have made it to parenthood?

 

[Forever Sleep]

Let me know when they start looking for volunteers.

...assuming of course that if this option were available, they would have made it to parenthood.

I'm not so sure everyone would utilize assisted suicide if it became available. Especially those who want children. Plus, I expect some non parents also don't support the right to die for all. I think some people simply can't get their head around someone wanting to end their own life. I expect many still associate it with mental illness and assume it can be cured.

Put it this way though- hypothetically speaking, do you think your parents and family would support you in your wishes if assisted suicide were available to you? I ran a poll a while back out of interest. 87% of people didn't think their families would support their decision:

Poll: If assisted suicide was legalised- would your family support your decision- do you think?

So- if assisted suicide was made available to everyone- no questions asked. Would you inform your family of your wishes before you did it for starters? Do you think they would support you in your wishes- could you make them understand do you suppose? I've split the pole into two- young adults...

sanctioned-suicide.net

Let's say the government would actually like to kill some of us off. Do you think they'd be able to bring it in if the majority of the population was against it? Not talking about assisted suicide for the terminally or chronically ill here- I mean- for all adults of sound mind. Do you think the majority of the population wants that? I don't think they do.

Of course, some will say it shouldn't have anything to do with parents when we have become adults. Some will argue that we shouldn't even need to notify them. Again- I don't understand how people think that would be sustainable. Imagine the reaction of the parents if their newly turned 18 year old is 'slaughtered' by their own government? I expect- that's how they'll see it.

Look at the reaction of this mother... Her son was 47 years old. Old enough to be a father himself. If the Swiss had agreed his application, I also imagine it was more than a case of him just not wanting to live. They downplay it here but I don't get the impression the Swiss clinics are terribly lenient in who they help.



Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe attitudes really have changed but, I get the sense that this society is still predominantly pro-life. It will try to prevent suicides where it can. How do you bring something in the vast majority of people are against? I'd say- you try to raise awareness around the whole issue. But, as to why we don't see assisted suicide being available to all- I imagine primarily, it's because the majority of the population don't want that brought in. Plus, our governments probably don't even want it brought in either.

 

[OnlyOneSolution]

...I get the sense that this society is still predominantly pro-life. It will try to prevent suicides where it can. How do you bring something in the vast majority of people are against? I'd say- you try to raise awareness around the whole issue. But, as to why we don't see assisted suicide being available to all- I imagine primarily, it's because the majority of the population don't want that brought in. Plus, our governments probably don't even want it brought in either.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with your assessment. People do not want able-bodied adults to have free access to End of Life aids. It offends their sense of morality and opposes the natural drive to survive. The beauty of discussion in this forum is that we get to fantasize and pose discussion among adults who feel differently from the mainstream. I posed the discussion, not because I think it is a viably acceptable option in the developed world, but because we just wish it could be that way. That is what SS affords.

I am an adult of sound mind who wants to choose CTB. But, as a genuine coward who has failed at OD attempts and who wants it to be easy and guaranteed, I will continue to lament and whine and live, longing, at least in the fantasy center of my brain, for the day that civilized society sees things from our perspective and establishes EOL Centers as posed in the original thread.

 

[ssspadbye]

I'm in complete agreement. I've actually had this thought for a while. This would solve so many problems.
Your goods and finances could be donated to the less fortunately if you chose, your organs could be safely donated, it would help with overpopulation, it would reduce disability by bad ctb attempts, it would reduce the overall unhappiness in the world, and it could even be a revenue generator for the state.
If I ran a country, I'd set one up tomorrow.

 

[OnlyOneSolution]

I'm in complete agreement. I've actually had this thought for a while. This would solve so many problems.
Your goods and finances could be donated to the less fortunately if you chose, your organs could be safely donated, it would help with overpopulation, it would reduce disability by bad ctb attempts, it would reduce the overall unhappiness in the world, and it could even be a revenue generator for the state.
If I ran a country, I'd set one up tomorrow.

You have my vote!

 

[Praying 4 a Miracle]

The other big reality in this, is that unborn children obviously have zero chance of giving consent or not giving consent to being aborted. A fully grown adult on the other hand, is fully capable of thinking this through and making a decision. When you think about it, suicide clinics should have existed long before abortion clinics.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

The history of the fight for legal abortion could be a blueprint for the fight for legal killing on demand. But there are differences: Suicidal people disappear medium-term if they are serious with their desire to die, so they cannot become a strong lobby group. People who want to die are normally not in fighting mood. Most suicidal people are able to kill themselfes without foreign help, this possibility is a bypass that reduces the pressure to fight for the right to be killed on demand.

 

[OnlyOneSolution]

The other big reality in this, is that unborn children obviously have zero chance of giving consent or not giving consent to being aborted. A fully grown adult on the other hand, is fully capable of thinking this through and making a decision. When you think about it, suicide clinics should have existed long before abortion clinics.

I agree wholeheartedly.

The history of the fight for legal abortion could be a blueprint for the fight for legal killing on demand. But there are differences: Suicidal people disappear medium-term if they are serious with their desire to die, so they cannot become a strong lobby group. People who want to die are normally not in fighting mood. Most suicidal people are able to kill themselfes without foreign help, this possibility is a bypass that reduces the pressure to fight for the right to be killed on demand.

You are right. When the desire to die becomes all encompassing, the drive to fight is diminished.

 

[Praying 4 a Miracle]

The history of the fight for legal abortion could be a blueprint for the fight for legal killing on demand. But there are differences: Suicidal people disappear medium-term if they are serious with their desire to die, so they cannot become a strong lobby group. People who want to die are normally not in fighting mood. Most suicidal people are able to kill themselfes without foreign help, this possibility is a bypass that reduces the pressure to fight for the right to be killed on demand.

While it's very true that many suicidal people are not in a fighting mood, this is precisely why our situation is so bad, and people have to resort to dangerous and painful suicide methods. The rebuttal to this argument however, is our numbers.

There are hundreds of millions of people in the world who are suffering chronically from health-related issues. It would only take a very small percentage of these people to be in a fighting mood, for suicide clinics and access to safe and humane assisted dying to become reality for all who need or desperately want it.

 

[Emeralds]

What's the secret of Soylent green? In all seriousness, this would be ideal; a service where you can put all your affairs in order and ctb peacefully. Yet again, that would require immense changes in the background; the system does not work like that, why let you ctb when they can try, again and again, to make you "productive" while sucking off every last bit of savings you have. If the state has invested 1 dollar in you, they naturally would not want to see you just take off.

The opposite is true. Most people who would apply for euthanasia are either seriously ill or disabled and aren't able to work. They are burdening the system not making them rich. It would be cheaper in the long run to let them end their life instead of denying them euthanasia and having to support them for years.

This is one reason why most people are against universal euthanasia. They fear that it could be used as a way for the government to get rid of people that they find burdensome like the elderly, the sick, disabled, homeless, etc.

 

[nihilistic_dragon]

I want to go to Planned Deathhood, hell yes, sign me up.

 

[FuneralCry]

I understand as all I hope and wish for is to painlessly cease existing, I have no interest in suffering in this cruel, torturous existence and never will do, the thought of suffering until old age is so horrific to me. All I wish for is non-existence, it's all I personally see as desirable, I suffer so much from how I cannot just have the option to peacefully die, all I wish for is an dreamless, eternal sleep free from all pain and suffering.

 

[Praying 4 a Miracle]

Suicide clinics would likely have a similar effect as safe consumption facilities for street drugs. I thought governments were crazy when they started these, but they actually work very well. disease transmission is reduced, there are fewer overdoses, and even consumption is reduced.

Suicide clinics would have a very similar success rate, because they would be able to provide resources and trained staff to help with recovery efforts as well as medically assisted dying. The number of people who would attempt dangerous and painful suicide methods would drop to almost zero.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Abortion is seen as preventing bringing new life into existence while suicide is seen as ending a life. Abortion clinics make sense to have since they play an important role in ensuring that people who don't want to be mothers or who could die if they carry through with the pregnancy don't have children. They especially play a very important role in ensuring that victims of SA and incest aren't forced into having to carry their abuser's child, along with making sure that literal children aren't being forced to give birth. Certain concerns, such as concerns over whether or not the person is in a state to consent to getting an abortion, aren't something that needs to be worried about in the same way that one may worry about this in regards to suicide. Along with that, abortions don't prevent you from having kids in the future. You can't still have kids later in life. Abortions, generally, are just a part of reproductive healthcare. A lot of these abortion clinics also serve as places where people can get contraceptives and HRT.

Suicide, meanwhile, is a permanent decision you cannot back out on. It's not like you can just come back to life whenever you want. Along with that, it isn't uncommon for a lot of those who want to end their life to not necessarily be in a state where they can properly make this decision. MAID requires a lot of regulations that abortions don't and having suicide clinics all over the place could potentially tempt some into acting on their suicidal thoughts when they might not have considered it prior. I just don't see the point in creating suicide clinics when it could just be done at a hospital or even at home.

I, personally, am for RTD, but it shouldn't be treated the same way that we treat abortions. These are two separate issues that require being treated in very different ways.

 

[ctb2soble]

I think suicide/end of life resorts should exist. Book your stay for a month or a week and check out of both life and the hotel at the end of the stay. Meanwhile your last days on Earth get to be filled with relaxing and enjoyable activities.

But since those don't exist I would travel before I ctb to get the same experience. Life might be cruel, but I believe everyone's last moments here should be enjoyable to make passing even easier on those choosing to end their lives.

 

[MyTimeIsUp]

It's totally fucked up that you believe an abortion is the same as a person killing themselves - what the? A foetus is not a fully developed human. Therefore, no comparison AT ALL

A suicide clinic is really weird logic too. "I'm overwhelmed so I'll go to the clinic and impulsively kill myself, fuck it". A lot of people would end it out of impulse. Let's face it, a lot do on here and daily around the world.

Suicide is a last resort, often those contemplating it feel like they have no other options left and it's their only way out. Unfortunately, certain issues can be resolved, but they can't see it due to their mindset. When you're in that mindset it is very difficult to see any differently.

Before anyone starts attacking me, I did not say *all*. I'm not here to start an argument, I'm here to show a different perspective, and sometimes that's what we need. I'm not saying everyone can be fixed, no, I'm saying certain issues can be resolved but the person in that situation can't see a way out due to pressures and feeling overwhelmed.

Please never compare FOETUS to a LIVING HUMAN - what is wrong with you? Evidently a man or a woman stuck in the 1950s very barbaric mindset.

 

[tss fss]

Ultimately it is going to happen . Euthanasia is already legal in several countries and the regulations sure getting relaxed . It is just going to take some time before it gets widely available.

 

[ssspadbye]

It's totally fucked up that you believe an abortion is the same as a person killing themselves - what the? A foetus is not a fully developed human. Therefore, no comparison AT ALL

A suicide clinic is really weird logic too. "I'm overwhelmed so I'll go to the clinic and impulsively kill myself, fuck it". A lot of people would end it out of impulse. Let's face it, a lot do on here and daily around the world.

Suicide is a last resort, often those contemplating it feel like they have no other options left and it's their only way out. Unfortunately, certain issues can be resolved, but they can't see it due to their mindset. When you're in that mindset it is very difficult to see any differently.

Before anyone starts attacking me, I did not say *all*. I'm not here to start an argument, I'm here to show a different perspective, and sometimes that's what we need. I'm not saying everyone can be fixed, no, I'm saying certain issues can be resolved but the person in that situation can't see a way out due to pressures and feeling overwhelmed.

Please never compare FOETUS to a LIVING HUMAN - what is wrong with you? Evidently a man or a woman stuck in the 1950s very barbaric mindset.

I'm very much 100% pro a woman's right to choose and I don't think this post had the tone you've mentioned above. It's simply asserting the fact that as individuals we should have the ultimate right of choice over our lives and bodies, and to make an informed decision. And that if one pays into a healthcare system, that should be a natural inclusion.

Not sure if you read the entire post, but they even mentioned "Have intervention resources available to give people an opportunity to work around a circumstantial, emotion-based urge to escape in the moment.".

I don't think this post is making a comparison of humans and foetuses. They event said "(Please don't make this a discussion about abortion.)"

I see what they're asking for is holistic healthcare support for a dignified end to those who reasonably choose to end it.

 

[OnlyOneSolution]

Suicide clinics would likely have a similar effect as safe consumption facilities for street drugs. I thought governments were crazy when they started these, but they actually work very well. disease transmission is reduced, there are fewer overdoses, and even consumption is reduced.

Suicide clinics would have a very similar success rate, because they would be able to provide resources and trained staff to help with recovery efforts as well as medically assisted dying. The number of people who would attempt dangerous and painful suicide methods would drop to almost zero.

Your comment is the perfect summary for the cover sheet of this proposal.

I'm very much 100% pro a woman's right to choose and I don't think this post had the tone you've mentioned above. It's simply asserting the fact that as individuals we should have the ultimate right of choice over our lives and bodies, and to make an informed decision. And that if one pays into a healthcare system, that should be a natural inclusion.

Not sure if you read the entire post, but they even mentioned "Have intervention resources available to give people an opportunity to work around a circumstantial, emotion-based urge to escape in the moment.".

I don't think this post is making a comparison of humans and foetuses. They event said "(Please don't make this a discussion about abortion.)"

I see what they're asking for is holistic healthcare support for a dignified end to those who reasonably choose to end it.

I'm very much 100% pro a woman's right to choose and I don't think this post had the tone you've mentioned above. It's simply asserting the fact that as individuals we should have the ultimate right of choice over our lives and bodies, and to make an informed decision. And that if one pays into a healthcare system, that should be a natural inclusion.

Not sure if you read the entire post, but they even mentioned "Have intervention resources available to give people an opportunity to work around a circumstantial, emotion-based urge to escape in the moment.".

I don't think this post is making a comparison of humans and foetuses. They event said "(Please don't make this a discussion about abortion.)"

I see what they're asking for is holistic healthcare support for a dignified end to those who reasonably choose to end it.

Well rebutted...a productive discussion will create robust input from every angle. Death is emotion-invoking for many reasons as is the topic of abortion. I am glad that my intent was communicated when emotion is not the controlling interpreter.

Before anyone starts attacking me, I did not say *all*. I'm not here to start an argument, I'm here to show a different perspective, and sometimes that's what we need. I'm not saying everyone can be fixed, no, I'm saying certain issues can be resolved but the person in that situation can't see a way out due to pressures and feeling overwhelmed.

Please never compare FOETUS to a LIVING HUMAN - what is wrong with you? Evidently a man or a woman stuck in the 1950s very barbaric mindset.

I respect your input. Based upon your response, however, I am unclear about your understanding of this site or my discussion thread.

The subject of Abortion creates very heated arguments. That is not productive. I am merely comparing the massive demand and availability of a controversial service in one area to the benefit of providing similar services in another equally controversial area.

From the beginning of creation, death has been inevitable, whether as a foetus or a very old adult. As a general statement, 100 years from now, you, me, and 99% of the foetuses created in the next 10 years will not be alive. But, abortion and suicide will both exist.

Yes, people do choose suicide in deeply emotional and desperate moments in their lives. Those represent the greater majority of successful deaths in these attempts. That is why interventions are crucial with or without the presence of suicide clinics. Whether you will accept it or not, many women get abortions during deeply emotional and desperate moments in their lives later to regret having done so. But, the availability does not end because of those choices.

I believe responsible, level-headed adults should be able to make a decision that the inevitability of death be scheduled and welcomed at their request, especially after a cooling off period to remove the emotion-based choice (make it 6 months down the road). Each one can do that now, just with less peaceful or harder to procure methods. So, the desperate individuals make suicide highly visible while the settled ones, like a majority of the members on this site, search for peaceful ways to hasten the inevitable often through years of frustration and despair.

In that, we welcome the discussion of creating these clinics.

 

[Talvikki]

There is a euthanasia clinic in the Netherlands since 2012.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_of_Expertise_on_Euthanasia

https://expertisecentrumeuthanasie.nl