Discussion "Ability determines if you can. Attitude determines if you will."

[GoodPersonEffed]

What do you think about this quote in relation to suicide?



Please be civil. Thank you. :)

 

[botanormal]

Hmmm... in my opinion, it's a lot more complicated than that. I get the sentiment, it just fails to take into account a lot of different details. There are so many different people that really want nothing more that to ctb, and they have exactly the same attitude towards it as somebody that has already done it. If it were based on attitude alone, I think most people who wanted to go, would go. There are a lot of factors that are really tough to control, like SI, planning, timing, and so many other things that might contribute to someone not wanting to do it. Even if their mind screams for death, they might just not be able to go through with it, even if they have the ability to.

In general, quotes are always interesting to think about, but I feel like they're too short to encompass all of the different factors. So I'd probably have to disagree personally, but I'm interested to see what you think! Thanks for sharing this

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I'm interested to see what you think!

I'll comment later. I didn't want to color anyone's perspective, whether to agree or to have a knee-jerk opposite response. I wanted to see what organic, uninfluenced responses folks might have.

 

[botanormal]

I'll comment later. I didn't want to color anyone's perspective, whether to agree or to have a knee-jerk opposite response. I wanted to see what organic, uninfluenced responses folks might have.

Fair enough! I'll keep an eye on this thread then, it'll be interesting to hear some other opinions, I always love to see a civil discussion.

 

[Symbiote]

Ever wonder why high-functioning depressives are always put on high-risk for suicide? They have a higher chance of going through with the act than regular depressed people due to how they adjust accordingly with every day life. I have the ability to carry mine out, I have the right mindset to do so without question and already rationalizing the risk if I fail. I'm okay with the amount of risk it takes to suicide. You take someone who has always been sedentary in life, low energy, fatigued, and chronic procrastinators, those tend to choose parasuicide methods or seek easier options that fit their once-in a blue moon impulsive personality. Methods like using a gun makes it easier and accidental deaths are higher.

Get busy living, or get busy dying...

 

[Moon Flower]

This is a difficult one tbh since there are so many "flavors" of suicidal ideation. Some people up and do it, some people just take immense risk hoping they'll die. Some people even just have a suicidal gesture/"cry for help" go wrong and die that way when it was never the initial intention.

 

[262653]

I don't know where to draw the line between ability and willingness... I'd compare the knowledge on how to bypass SI to the knowledge on how to lift heavy weights properly without traumatizing the body. I do feel like a program in a machine that keeps operating without my awareness, and is governed by certain laws.

All the radical decisions I've made in my life (including all previous attempts) were accompanied with strong emotions, mostly unpleasant ones. I can hardly conjure up those emotions on my own. Mostly the words of other people serve as a trigger. It's like I subconsciously know my own wounds, so I'm not daring to pester them, while other people have no problem with it because they don't always know where my wounds are located, and don't always have any qualms about pestering my wounds.

I remember a similar thing happened when I started exercising. Someone whose opinion I cared about insulted me, and I felt so bad I couldn't afford to remain fat and ugly. The regret was all too much. When people saw results, some of them were complimenting me, and saying things about determination, hard work, consistency, and all that stuff, but I didn't feel like I had a choice in the matter.

You might have guessed by now that I don't believe in free will. When I'm pumped with emotions though, I feel like I can do anything.

 

[Captive of Mind]

There are so many factors that play into it that I don't think this is always the case. Someone could have the ability and the attitude to do it, but there is something else stopping them. A lot of times some one wants to stay away from certain dates, has to figure out how to not get stopped if the method can take hours to kill, or is doing something to increase the success rate. The stakes are high enough to not go through with it until everything is just right.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Okay, so when I came across this quote, which is from a motivational author and was not applied to suicide, either against or for, I used it as a tool of analysis.

First off, the quote was a springboard for me that shrunk down and more clearly delineated the concept of SI, because I thought about it as both ability and attitude. I consider SI to be mostly physiological, such as fighting to breathe, or an evolutionary psychological safeguard that can be overridden if shit gets real enough (like jumping from a building when the building is on fire and the escape route is blocked -- abililty can shift according to need and threat). I've posted about this before: one may stand at the edge of a cliff and want to jump, but think/feel, "I just can't"; however, if a band of violent terrorists were racing toward them, then it would become a matter of the most desirable of the only two available awful outcomes, a matter of self-preservation, wherefore "I just can't" would shift to "I have to and I can." Same as running into traffic to save a child, but not to save an important document that could be the only thing to save one from homelessness, maybe not even saving another adult -- I think some of this stuff is evolutionarily hard-wired.

Spoiler: SIDENOTE ABOUT OWNERSHIP LANGUAGE: "MY" SI

On a side note, I also think calling it "my SI" is a reinforcing attachment that creates a false sense of ownership, and of being disempowered or stuck with something, similarly to calling someone "my abuser" or "my bully." I don't see how one can detach from something undesirable if they use ownership language. For example, I've recently started referring to the people who raised me by their first names in my mind and irl, no longer by their titles of Mom and Dad, and it's been quite freeing to disconnect like that.

Second, here's a quick analysis I did using the quote as a tool, and it's much simpler than the thought process I had above about SI:

Spoiler: ABILITY DETERMINES IF YOU CAN

"Ability determines if you can." -- Having the resources to procure means, having the privacy or no interference, having the tolerance for the method (I would have already been dead with SN if not for symptoms I know I will have, but there are no terrorists at my door, either), true SI as discussed above, mental capacity to figure out a method, psychological capacity to make decisions and act on them, physical ability to act unassisted or someone willing to assist if not.

Spoiler: ATTITUDE DETERMINES IF YOU WILL

"Attitude determines if you will." -- Psychological states (according to Joiner's studies, perceived burdensomeness and a sense of low belongingness or social alienation are predictors of ability to follow through on suicide), uncertainty, feeling responsibility toward others in spite of great personal pain or burden, not having tools for analysis and decision making to figure out what is one's most fundamental determining attitudes, not enough/too much hopelessness, survivable misery, resilience vs. overly challenging factors, being in enough pain to force a change (like the substance user's rock bottom) which could lead to embracing life or choosing to end it.

Spoiler: PERSONAL SURPRISE TWIST ABOUT ATTITUDE

Related to the Joiner study, funny enough, I have stayed alive longer because, as socially isolated and alienated as I am by no fault or natural desire of my own, I have on SS a sense of belongingness, reciprocity, mutually positive impact, and connectedness that were taken from me irl. For almost two years prior to SS, I had no meaningful interpersonal contact, just brief contacts such as at the grocery store. Anyhow, I've pretty much reached the end of what I can manage of the shit in my life, now it's a matter of winding down and poignantly -- tragically comfortingly -- looking forward at least to the deathbed comfort I can receive in saying goodbye and being said goodbye to, in not being alone, and in experiencing the dignity/honor, compassion, support and love that an old person on their deathbed could receive (as long as their loved ones aren't totally self-absorbed assholes or the old person wasn't a totally self-absorbed asshole. And, yeah, name-calling isn't really useful, but I don't feel like making the effort to use my words about this right now. I'm tapped out today on exceedingly compassionate, virtuous and rational efforts for this topic and ones very similar to it.)

 

[Captive of Mind]

You piqued my curiosity and definitely delivered. This was a bit of a masterpiece of a post. And great format too btw :D

I agree with all of these points and you broke things down thoroughly. I also appreciate the truth that you put out there in the last spoiler that included your "personal surprise twist". People need to know that this place has given us something significant that would have been sad to have to die without.

 

[Weary Soul]

"Ability determines if you can. Attitude determines if you will."​

I completely agree with this statement whether or not it pertains to suicide.

I would add that determination and drive are as important as well to accomplish anything.

For me, ability, attitude, drive, and determination have been intrinsically broken by the people in my life, and by life itself.

<3

 

[Spitfire]

I think it is much much more complicated. Other human thought is obscured beyond my own.