Discussion A hypothetical question about beauty

[WhiteHeavenSeeker14]

Hey guys. Let me preface this by saying that one of the major reasons I wanna end myself is because I'm ugly. Period. No redeeming feature, my body and face are a real tragedy. No question about it.

That being said, let's say a world exists where everyone looks good. Like really pretty. All men and women have strikingly beautiful and yet a diverse set of faces. Do you guys think that concepts of beauty would completely lose their meaning in such a world, since everyone looks good? Or the people living in the said world would be genuinely happier than the real world, considering everyone can find their dream partner?

(I know beauty is one of the shallower things to look for in a human, but let's not pretend it is not extremely significant)


I really want to know what you guys think about this

 

[Brick In The Wall]

I think people would still find a reason to think some are ugly or beautiful on what you said here "Diverse set of faces." Beauty is subjective and you could argue that all life is beautiful or ugly even now.

I think some of the root problems we face is our competitive nature and sheer hubris. If humanity could lose those traits as well as maybe a few others this might not even be a subject for debate.

 

[Ghost2211]

I agree that if there was any difference people would see fault or greater beauty. For the concept of beauty to be gone people would have to be exact clones.

 

[Rünomai]

I'm going to further the extremeness of this hypothetical by also stating that, on this parallel planet beauty is objectively measurable, and that if everyone were to maintain synonymous grooming routines, ceteris paribus, they'd reach the objectively average level of aesthetic. I honestly do not think that there would be much of a difference in this society's frets about beauty as opposed to our society's frets about beauty. People would still almost certainly attempt to outperform their peers; people would still discern which material discrepancies are unfavorable; people would still differentiate people other people corporeally, etc. Even the facial diverseness, as mentioned in your post, allows for aesthetic discrimination in some respect.

Concerning your final interrogative: Everyone is capable of finding a partner best suited to themselves regardless of the ubiquity of beauty. This difference in attractiveness only seems like it changes much due your biases; no one existent on this hypothetical planet their entire life will see their beauty as a positive abnormality; therefore, I believe that they'll (what would you say?) take it for granted.

Also you seem to think that there is a sort of equivalence extant aggrandized beauty and success in romantic relational endeavors. I disagree on this account, but I am too tired to elucidate why.

Food for thought: Wealthy countries have higher rates of depression than impoverished countries.[1]

[1] "https://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20110726/richer-countries-have-higher-depression-rates#1"

 

[Amumu]

I'm going to further the extremeness of this hypothetical by also stating that, on this parallel planet beauty is objectively measurable, and that if everyone were to maintain synonymous grooming routines, ceteris paribus, they'd reach the objectively average level of aesthetic. I honestly do not think that there would be much of a difference in this society's frets about beauty as opposed to our society's frets about beauty. People would still almost certainly attempt to outperform their peers; people would still discern which material discrepancies are unfavorable; people would still differentiate people other people corporeally, etc. Even the facial diverseness, as mentioned in your post, allows for aesthetic discrimination in some respect.

Concerning your final interrogative: Everyone is capable of finding a partner best suited to themselves regardless of the ubiquity of beauty. This difference in attractiveness only seems like it changes much due your biases; no one existent on this hypothetical planet their entire life will see their beauty as a positive abnormality; therefore, I believe that they'll (what would you say?) take it for granted.

Also you seem to think that there is a sort of equivalence extant aggrandized beauty and success in romantic relational endeavors. I disagree on this account, but I am too tired to elucidate why.

Food for thought: Wealthy countries have higher rates of depression than impoverished countries.

Nice post, but your food for thought is wrong. I do like maps : here's a one for depression.

 

[WhiteHeavenSeeker14]

Concerning your final interrogative: Everyone is capable of finding a partner best suited to themselves regardless of the ubiquity of beauty. This difference in attractiveness only seems like it changes much due your biases; no one existent on this hypothetical planet their entire life will see their beauty as a positive abnormality; therefore, I believe that they'll (what would you say?) take it for granted.

I see your point, but I think there are some patterns in beauty that are pretty much generally the norm. Human brains prefer symmetrical faces (not perfectly symmetrical, that would be creepy but to a high degree. I personally think symmetry in eyes matters most). Also say a man being taller will pretty much always be more attractive to women, and similarly some shallow qualities in women are pretty much generally more attractive to men.

Thinking about it, I do think beauty in a culture is mostly about standing out from the general populace. Europeans tan their skins while Asians bleach them. A person with blue eyes may be the norm in Sweden but will be the hottest shit in most other countries.

And I have real trouble believing the map above me, when it states that people in China are happier than their counterparts in Scandinavia

 

[Rünomai]

Nice post, but your food for thought is wrong. I do like maps : here's a one for depression.View attachment 45512

Understanding the Basics of Depression

WebMD's guide to the types and prevalence of depression.

www.webmd.com

 

[Futile]

Hi, I too have been severely ostracized for my uglyness and want to kill myself because of it.

As for your question I think that if everyone was equally beautiful and therefore lookism was defeated, the world would surely improve greatly.

Sadly, that whore we call mother nature wants to have winners and losers, so we will never have that

 

[Amumu]

I see your point, but I think there are some patterns in beauty that are pretty much generally the norm. Human brains prefer symmetrical faces (not perfectly symmetrical, that would be creepy but to a high degree. I personally think symmetry in eyes matters most). Also say a man being taller will pretty much always be more attractive to women, and similarly some shallow qualities in women are pretty much generally more attractive to men.

Thinking about it, I do think beauty in a culture is mostly about standing out from the general populace. Europeans tan their skins while Asians bleach them. A person with blue eyes may be the norm in Sweden but will be the hottest shit in most other countries.

And I have real trouble believing the map above me, when it states that people in China are happier than their counterparts in Scandinavia

The source is PLOS Medicine
Poor people aren't often diagnosed.
Rate of suicide Finland : 15,9 per 100000 people per year
Rate of suicide China : 9,7 per 100000 people per year
Actually Finland isn't a Scandinavian country

 

[Rünomai]

I see your point, but I think there are some patterns in beauty that are pretty much generally the norm. Human brains prefer symmetrical faces (not perfectly symmetrical, that would be creepy but to a high degree. I personally think symmetry in eyes matters most). Also say a man being taller will pretty much always be more attractive to women, and similarly some shallow qualities in women are pretty much generally more attractive to men.

Thinking about it, I do think beauty in a culture is mostly about standing out from the general populace. Europeans tan their skins while Asians bleach them. A person with blue eyes may be the norm in Sweden but will be the hottest shit in most other countries.

And I have real trouble believing the map above me, when it states that people in China are happier than their counterparts in Scandinavia

You don't actually see my point if you think that I was antagonizing the notion that there exists a census of beauty.

Poor people aren't often diagnosed.

This is usually obviated through randomized trials that implement live diagnoses as demonstrated in my source.

 

[Superdeterminist]

I don't think that beauty depends on the existence of ugliness to itself exist. And due to the sheer complexity of reality, I don't think that a world with only attractive people would at all guarantee a dream partner for everyone.

 

[Amumu]

You don't actually see my point if you think that I was antagonizing the notion that there exists a census of beauty.



This is usually obviated through randomized trials that implement live diagnoses as demonstrated in my source.

I guess our sources don't agree then

I'll make a thread about it some day because it is not the topic of this one

 

[Giraffey]

I believe that beauty would simply be redefined. A person's beauty may instead be defined by their clothes or by the way they conduct themselves, social status or perhaps even pheromones if we're keeping a genetic component.

All of these are already at play in the animal kingdom. For some animals beauty is defined by a mating dance or the quality of a nest/home, for others beauty is based on social status and rank in a group hierarchy.

Of course, beauty is subjective. If you believe that you lack physical beauty then others may still disagree with your scathing self-assessment.

Even if you do lack traditional physical beauty, not everybody bases their attraction on physical qualities. It's cliché I know and I'm loathe to repeat it, but it's true.

 

[262653]

So you're saying you want to die because you're ugly, and then introduce a hypothetical world where everyone can find a dream partner because everyone is pretty. Did I get this right? Are you saying that you want to die because you haven't found your dream partner because of your looks?

 

[watsonsmith]

Of course, beauty is subjective. If you believe that you lack physical beauty then others may still disagree with your scathing self-assessment.

This is very true.

And I know many people who considered themselves unattractive in high school, university, workplace and found themselves attracting a lot of attention in later stages of their lives or when they travelled for instance. I believe attraction has a lot to do with all the things that go beyond just somebody's looks – the smell, pheromones, the tone of voice, the way someone moves – all the way to personality, interests and all the other things that make you smitten and eventually in love with someone.

Ultimately, I think it is confidence and self-love I personally found attractive in people, often regardless of their looks. A lot of it can be built by taking proper care of yourself. Granted a pleasant physical appearance may give you those things more naturally, but speaking from my experience this is not always the case.

My two cents – please don't CTB because of your looks. There are many people who I'm sure would find you beautiful and you can try working on finding this beauty in yourself as well. I don't mean to invalidate your experience, I struggled with hating my body all my life and I fell into the arms of anorexia because of it for a period of a few years (and miraculously dug myself out of it), but I encourage you to use it to understand yourself and the world better.

As for your hypothetical scenario – some women I fell in love with and absolutely adored their bodies and faces probably wouldn't make it into your perfect society. I wouldn't have swapped them for literally any other person in the world given the opportunity. Beauty standards shift over the ages and individually.

 

[xLosthopex]

Beauty is a social construct, and beauty ideals differ depending on culture, time era etc. and also just personal opinion(although this factor is heavily influenced by our own cultures, the media, social media etc.) For example in the western world we live in a very fatphobic society, where we think fat equals bad or ugly, and thin equals beauty(thankfully with body positivity movement though I see this attitude changing particularly in my generation(Gen Z)) but in some cultures fat is seen as a key feature of beauty, there are tribes in Uganda where this is the case
And just as a personal example, where I live at least(western society) I would be considered very attractive. Features wise, I am tall, skinny, flat chested, but have an alternative appearance: tattoos, piercing etc. I often will have people tell me that I look like a runway model. But then there are others who will think that big boobs, big bum is what is attractive in a woman.... so maybe to some I am ugly ? My point is, who is to define what equals beauty and what equals ugly?

 

[Amumu]

Beauty is a social construct, and beauty ideals differ depending on culture, time era etc. and also just personal opinion(although this factor is heavily influenced by our own cultures, the media, social media etc.) For example in the western world we live in a very fatphobic society, where we think fat equals bad or ugly, and thin equals beauty(thankfully with body positivity movement though I see this attitude changing particularly in my generation(Gen Z)) but in some cultures fat is seen as a key feature of beauty, there are tribes in Uganda where this is the case
And just as a personal example, where I live at least(western society) I would be considered very attractive. Features wise, I am tall, skinny, flat chested, but have an alternative appearance: tattoos, piercing etc. I often will have people tell me that I look like a runway model. But then there are others who will think that big boobs, big bum is what is attractive in a woman.... so maybe to some I am ugly ? My point is, who is to define what equals beauty and what equals ugly?

No unfortunately beauty is objective to a certain extent.
Symmetry of the body and the face, nice teeth, regular features are even preferred by babies.
It is beneficial that your generation wants to stop bullying people. Nonetheless you can't hide that we're still social animals, and culture isn't all.
Nature influences us a lot but we don't acknowledge it. I actually find it funny that people who are considered pretty in their country are prone to think that beauty is subjective, and people who have been told they were ugly for a long time are prone to consider that beauty is purely objective.

 

[xLosthopex]

No unfortunately beauty is objective to a certain extent.
Symmetry of the body and the face, nice teeth, regular features are even preferred by babies.
It is beneficial that your generation wants to stop bullying people. Nonetheless you can't hide that we're still social animals, and culture isn't all.
Nature influences us a lot but we don't acknowledge it. I actually find it funny that people who are considered pretty in their country are prone to think that beauty is subjective, and people who have been told they were ugly for a long time are prone to consider that beauty is purely objective.

All throughout my school life I was called ugly, I made some major changes to my appearance once I became and adult and now am considered attractive but I do know what it's like to be the loser/ugly person, but I still hold this view

 

[262653]

No unfortunately beauty is objective to a certain extent.
Symmetry of the body and the face, nice teeth, regular features are even preferred by babies.
It is beneficial that your generation wants to stop bullying people. Nonetheless you can't hide that we're still social animals, and culture isn't all.
Nature influences us a lot but we don't acknowledge it. I actually find it funny that people who are considered pretty in their country are prone to think that beauty is subjective, and people who have been told they were ugly for a long time are prone to consider that beauty is purely objective.

I've recently heard a term "collectively subjective", I can't quite explain what that means but intuitively it's like the assemblage of evaluations from various individuals. So if a bunch of people thing of Player 1 as ugly, like, a lot of different ppl, it's still a subjective evaluation, even though it seems to be consistent between different ppl. I'm not calling it collectively subjective instead of objective to make it seem less important. Just felt like saying something contrary, I guess.

It's been mentioned by @xLosthopex and some others (I'm too lazy to go through all the messages) that appearance is a subject to change. It works both ways. It's advantageous for those who are able/willing to put effort into enhancing/maintaining their appearance, but disadvantageous for those who aren't, like me.
Just like the law doesn't protect the weak from the strong, as some ancient king said, but introduces a new power curve which might give some previously weaklings an advantage, but it works both ways.

 

[Viro_Major]

Beauty is ignored after some time.

In between exact twins, would a joyful face be the wonderful winner ? Rise and shine to drag the attention.

For me, looks is already tainted by how the person incarnates. I can be turned off dramatically if I'm failing to respect the mind, ideas or attitude. For instance, there is nothing that I hate more than a lack of humility in a good looking person. Then he/she can go to hell, I won't be interested (and vice-versa to some extent)