Discussion Aborting disabled fetuses

[fromange]

Given that abortion is a right, (if you disagree with this please don't argue about it here) and that it's not unethical to have a child in general (antinatslists chill out) is it ethical to abort fetuses that are predicted to have a disability? Say, it's a more than likely chance. Ie above 51%, and the disability can be anything. If it depends on the disability, where do you draw the line? Or in other words do you have a moral obligation to abort them?

 

[TheHolySword]

I think anyone can abort for any reason. It's not my choice. But ethically? The only person who could decide is the person who that unborn fetus would become. You can argue it wasn't right to bring them into the world, but not everyone with a disability will live a miserable existence. When you talk about the ethics of it, you start to get into eugenics, and it's a dangerous territory. Who's to say it stops at 51% chance of a disability? How do we decide what disabilities are ethically reprehensible and which ones aren't? There should be no common ground for such a thing. It should always be an individual choice.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

Life is not the ultimate reward (Abortion Edition)
Similar to many people on here's views to suicide, I'd like to delve into abortion as a similar topic. Often people are shamed for aborting babies for many reasons.

"They're using it as birth control! They need consequences to their actions instead of an out!" Is the most popular excuse (rooted in very little evidence btw), but I ask you... so the baby is consequences? They claim to see the baby as a human, claim WE see it as an object, but they are so ready to use a living being as a punishment to another person.

How will that baby feel? Will they get lucky and have a parent who takes this in stride? Who gets education? Has access to support? Has the mental maturity and stability?

Or will that baby be born into an abusive/neglectful home? Perhaps even sent to the foster system to be assaulted, abused, and blamed after being abandoned?

Then on top of this, people get shamed for aborting fetuses with "common disorders" like autism. Do I think that all parents should be ready for common disorders when trying for a baby? ABSOLUTELY. If they are not, should they be guilted into birthing this baby who will suffer mentally? Hell no! My parents knew nothing of how to understand autism and because of that, I'm traumatized 6 ways to Sunday.

Please for the love of G-d just, abort if there is the option to and you are not ONE HUNDRED PERCENT sure that you can take on this challenge.

And don't send us to foster care either. If you think abuse is bad there for neurotypical kids, than you need to look at the statistics of sexual abuse in autistic and disabled children even OUTSIDE of foster care.

My opinions which I stated on an old thread ^

I can expand more if asked. I should add that this applies for UNcommon disabilities too.

 

[fromange]

When you talk about the ethics of it, you start to get into eugenics, and it's a dangerous territory.

I agree that not everyone with a disability will live a miserable life. But it's similar to how not everyone born will live a miserable life. You probably think that's not a good basis to birth a child without their consent. I agree with antinatalism. Does disability make someone's life better? Maybe dwarfism made it easier to find the love of their life that shared the condition. Maybe being paralyzed got someone out of a war. But in terms of probabilities it's definitely more like that a life is made worse with a disability.

So when people say eugenics do they mean in practice it'll have racial bias? Because I agree with that, and that's wrong. Because race isn't scientific. Disability, kinda is. I mean if you're of an oppressed minority and you chose to not have kids because you know they'll also be oppredded I kinda get that too although I wouldn't encourage it from outside. That's genocide. If they want to have children to overthrow their oppressor or become a demographic majority I get that too.

But I just don't get how having disabled babies is ok. I do think having a baby is already bad in general, so it's not discriminating disabled people from "having their fun too." Childbirth isn't a right. It's more that it's especially bad if your of old age and there's a high likelihood of the child having down syndrome. Or in other words, it's not "as bad" if the parents weren't aware of any high probability of disability and had birth, compared to if they did. Ask anyone, would they rather carry another disability or cease to exist, and many will chose latter. For a finger, maybe not. But both arms, that makes the choice easier. Maybe I can do with 10 less IQ. But I would rather not be born than have ADHD. I have ADHD and it's not even the "worst" of disabilities. Most people don't even take it seriously. But I know I'm inferior to someone without it because of it. I take ableism and discrimination seriously so I want to know if this is right. People that say all life is equally precious is lying. Society inside and outside capitalism will view disabled lives as less. That's not my opinion, I wish it wasn't that way, but I don't see how it could be different, as long as we have a society. I'm just admitting it. I think it would be great if they find the gene that caused various neurodivergencies and just zap it out of humanity forever. Just like you make some disease obsolete with vaccines.

My opinions which I stated on an old thread

I agree. What do you think about this ^

 

[Dejected 55]

Bluntly... it is often our imperfections, our flaws, that make humans better. That sounds paradoxical... but in a world where only perceived "perfect" babies were allowed to be born, what would life be like? It would either be boring OR people would still be depressed for different reasons... even if everyone literally looked the same, a whole clone race of just one woman and one man and that's all we were... all the same people copied over and over again... some would be unhappy with their experiences in life.

So, I think it is dangerous to start thinking about how to make perfect babies or abort those who are perceived or projected to be "disabled" or whatever. Have babies if you want or don't have them if you don't want... I can get behind either of those positions... but once you start down the road of only wanting a baby if it is born as a perfect specimen... you lose me there.

 

[itsgone2]

.. but once you start down the road of only wanting a baby if it is born as a perfect specimen... you lose me there.

Right and what even is perfect anyway. I have no physical disabilities. How could they have tested for my mental disabilities? I've had npd and anger issues and hurt people. The regret is a major reason for being suicidal. Was someone going to test for that? Aborting me would have been a much better decision than someone kind, with something like downs.

 

[X-sanguinate86]

Obviously painlessly snuffing out the fetus is for the best. Life has no inherent value and will usually lead to suffering. As for the dangers of eugenics...I have to confess that I really don't care. I care about suffering.

Edit: I changed "painfully" to "painlessly", which was what I intended to write. Lol...

 

[fromange]

Bluntly... it is often our imperfections, our flaws, that make humans better. That sounds paradoxical... but in a world where only perceived "perfect" babies were allowed to be born, what would life be like? It would either be boring OR people would still be depressed for different reasons...

In a world without amputees, lacking one finger could be treated as big of a taboo and disability. But eh not really. Objectively the latter is a lighter disability. A less of a disability. I never said perfect or clones. You're strawmaning me a little here. It's about known certain disabilities that have no behenfits. Not that there's no benefit with that person existing, but no benefit in a person having the disability. Like dwarfism can be useful in acting and getting in tight places without doing child labor or robots. But a lot of neurodivergencies. Is there any benefit? It seems cruel to not ensure as close to perfection as possible if you are going to have a child. Like harm reduction. I also understand really ugly people not wanting kids. That's pretty good. Kid might find love who knows but it's just really cruel. You're doing bad anyways so it's less bad if you're making sure the child isn't disabled.

Also I'm all for curing disabilities. Bad visions not a big deal because of glasses. That's a good example of leveling the ability with an invention. If our world was barrier free everywhere, that's good but it's still not like glasses imo. Wheelchair is just always less convenient. Just like glasses are always less convenient. But that gap feels smaller. If there's a medication or brain surgery cure for mental illness that's pretty much like glasses. It'll still be more resource intensive to have disabled people because you have to make glasses and develop and maintain these meds but a good society can make that less visible. Problem is bad vision is about the only disability we've cured. Maybe left-handedness if you stretch it?

Right and what even is perfect anyway. I have no physical disabilities. How could they have tested for my mental disabilities?

I should've clarified. It's just a thought experiment. I don't know about how a lot of this actually works medically. Just saying "if" you could predict all disabilities including mental ones.

 

[Dejected 55]

But now you're trying to rate disabilities, in your opinion, and deciding which ones are acceptable. That seems a step too far, and honestly, really treads into Nazi territory and Hitler's "superior race" Aryan nation stuff. We know how horrible that turned out. I mean, what's the next step from deciding to abort any imperfect child? Obviously you'd look around and want to kill off any non-perfect people already here, right? I mean to "end the suffering" or whatever?

And you mention wheelchairs... So... what about someone born without a disability who becomes paralyzed? You would have aborted such a child as being "not worth living" right? So might as well kill the paralyzed adult too, because they aren't suffering with a "beneficial" disability and are just in the way and hobbled.

See how this thinking gets dangerous in a hurry?

And what happens when your view of what constitutes a disability is challenged by someone else? Maybe you should be exterminated because of your imperfections as well?

This line of thinking really doesn't lead anywhere good if put into practice.

 

[fromange]

But now you're trying to rate disabilities, in your opinion, and deciding which ones are acceptable. That seems a step too far, and honestly, really treads into Nazi territory and Hitler's "superior race" Aryan nation stuff. We know how horrible that turned out. I mean, what's the next step from deciding to abort any imperfect child? Obviously you'd look around and want to kill off any non-perfect people already here, right? I mean to "end the suffering" or whatever?

And you mention wheelchairs... So... what about someone born without a disability who becomes paralyzed? You would have aborted such a child as being "not worth living" right? So might as well kill the paralyzed adult too, because they aren't suffering with a "beneficial" disability and are just in the way and hobbled.

See how this thinking gets dangerous in a hurry?

And what happens when your view of what constitutes a disability is challenged by someone else? Maybe you should be exterminated because of your imperfections as well?

This line of thinking really doesn't lead anywhere good if put into practice.

What no I don't think abortion slippery sloaps into murder. I mean there's a huge difference in existing as a full human and not. Animals have more rights than human fetuses.

I have a different concern. I think there is a pressure for disabled people to self exit. You can say they're irrational and it was in their head, and to a degree depression does hinder judgement and lower iq. But it's true by definition the world's not made for disabled people. And while right now there's a toxic relationship of oppressing disabled people AND telling them to not self exit (ableism and prolife), if you make euthanasia legal and accessible, yeah everyone gonna be looking at you like "hey we made this for you. Go do it consenting adult." I think that's murder. It's fucked. This version of society is more consistent, ableist and prodeath. I just don't think disability is like racism. What kind of society will disability, well, not be disabling. It's when it's cured. Or you don't have a society and disabled people live alone. Then I don't think it's too bad because there's no comparison. I mean even having difference in intelligence or attractiveness or height I think is pretty fucked up part of existence.

Ultimate solution: extinction of all sentient life.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

Right and what even is perfect anyway. I have no physical disabilities. How could they have tested for my mental disabilities? I've had npd and anger issues and hurt people. The regret is a major reason for being suicidal. Was someone going to test for that? Aborting me would have been a much better decision than someone kind, with something like downs.

Ironically, since NPD comes from trauma, this in itself shows how important abortion is. Don't willingly have children that might be born into an abusive or traumatic environment/family. It will be worse for everyone.

 

[itsgone2]

Ironically, since NPD comes from trauma, this in itself shows how important abortion is. Don't willingly have children that might be born into an abusive or traumatic environment/family. It will be worse for everyone.

This is correct. In my case anyway. My parents messed up.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

This is correct. In my case anyway. My parents messed up.

Same my dude


Honestly to expand on my thoughts here... it's a complicated topic.

I see a lot of "aborting disabled fetuses avoids suffering!" and "disabilities are differences :)" type talking points, and as a severely physically/mentally disabled person, those are two extremes that lead us nowhere.

Disability is complicated and nuanced. Many people don't even realize that simple neurodivergencies like ADHD, LSN Autism, and depression, are disabling.

Others don't understand that stigmatized neurodivergencies like NPD, ASPD, and DID, are disabling. And these in particular are disorders that you can be born with predisposition to, but must experience trauma to actually develop.

Saying that giving birth to a disabled child is bad is a selfish mindset and ignore the variance in existence for all disabled people. Where is the line? What's the percentage? If a family shares a disability (let's say autism), and then give birth to a kid who ends up experiencing the condition differently, needing higher support needs, etc, should that family have aborted the kid? Just from the possibility that their experience would have been "more severe"?

If you live in a family that has good access to healthcare, specialists, physical therapy, and more, there are plenty of disabilities that someone can live a wonderful life with.

Keep in mind that this website is literally a safe haven for those who are suffering—the sample size of happy disabled people here is bound to be low.

I definitely think that giving birth to disabled babies should be considered in the context of the current social climate, though. I will always stand by the fact that purposely birthing a disabled child, no matter how "mild" the disability, into an abusive or traumatizing environment with NO FAILSAFE to make sure they make it out unscathed is selfish and cruel. Potentially moreso than a nondisabled kid.

I was born disabled. Mentally and physically. But I would have made it out okay without the abuse and neglect that destroyed my mind and body. Life would be more worth living if my chronic pain hadn't been ignored by my dad until my body started to fall apart. It would be more worth living if my trauma hadn't been left to fester, guided from traumatic environment to traumatic environment with no time to process until our brain split thousands of alters.

But even if that never happened... I'd still be disabled. I was born privileged enough that I could have had access to specialists, proper therapy and schooling. It was the fucked up abusers that kept it from me, not my disability.

Aborting a disabled fetus should always be on a case-by-case basis. This isn't something you can simplify into a math formula.

 

[fromange]

Same my dude


Honestly to expand on my thoughts here... it's a complicated topic.

I see a lot of "aborting disabled fetuses avoids suffering!" and "disabilities are differences :)" type talking points, and as a severely physically/mentally disabled person, those are two extremes that lead us nowhere.

Disability is complicated and nuanced. Many people don't even realize that simple neurodivergencies like ADHD, LSN Autism, and depression, are disabling.

Others don't understand that stigmatized neurodivergencies like NPD, ASPD, and DID, are disabling. And these in particular are disorders that you can be born with predisposition to, but must experience trauma to actually develop.

Saying that giving birth to a disabled child is bad is a selfish mindset and ignore the variance in existence for all disabled people. Where is the line? What's the percentage? If a family shares a disability (let's say autism), and then give birth to a kid who ends up experiencing the condition differently, needing higher support needs, etc, should that family have aborted the kid? Just from the possibility that their experience would have been "more severe"?

If you live in a family that has good access to healthcare, specialists, physical therapy, and more, there are plenty of disabilities that someone can live a wonderful life with.

Keep in mind that this website is literally a safe haven for those who are suffering—the sample size of happy disabled people here is bound to be low.

I definitely think that giving birth to disabled babies should be considered in the context of the current social climate, though. I will always stand by the fact that purposely birthing a disabled child, no matter how "mild" the disability, into an abusive or traumatizing environment with NO FAILSAFE to make sure they make it out unscathed is selfish and cruel. Potentially moreso than a nondisabled kid.

I was born disabled. Mentally and physically. But I would have made it out okay without the abuse and neglect that destroyed my mind and body. Life would be more worth living if my chronic pain hadn't been ignored by my dad until my body started to fall apart. It would be more worth living if my trauma hadn't been left to fester, guided from traumatic environment to traumatic environment with no time to process until our brain split thousands of alters.

But even if that never happened... I'd still be disabled. I was born privileged enough that I could have had access to specialists, proper therapy and schooling. It was the fucked up abusers that kept it from me, not my disability.

Aborting a disabled fetus should always be on a case-by-case basis. This isn't something you can simplify into a math formula.

You're right about the bias here. It just seems so hopeess for some but also so preventable. How is it selfish? And how is it ignoring variances? The happiest person in the world can be a disabled person. Kinda like how a woman can be taller than a man. But does a disability ever raise QOL? Again childbirth is not some natural right. Snd children are not a right in general. Even if they're unnaturally adopted. Children have the right to parents. Parents never have any rights to their potential or existing children. They have obligations. So if you're gonna do it, that's a choice. And if you're not sure if they're going be a blonde hair blue eyed superhuman /s why would you do it. I think not aborting is selfish. You're rolling a die and playing with someone's life. Don't roll if you have bad odds and you know it.

If it's to overrun the world with various disabilities and wipe the abled population out of existence I'm all for it. When everyones autistic no one's autistic.

 

[Dejected 55]

Ugly parents don't automatically have ugly children. Pretty parents don't automatically have pretty children. Two non-dwarf parents can have a dwarf child. Two dwarf parents can have a non-dwarf child. Two people born as paraplegics could have a non-paraplegic child. I could go on and on...

If you think aborting all the disabled people eliminates the possibility of disabled people, you are mistaken. There are all manner of disabilities that take time to show up in a person even when you are born with the predisposition for it. There would be no way to know for sure.

And if you're randomly aborting presumed disabled babies, there's as good a chance you're also eliminating some future immunity from something worse from the gene pool at the same time, because nature doesn't work cleanly like you think. It's not all perfect vs disabled... people are way more complex than that.

There's just no good ending to this line of thinking no matter how you slice it.

 

[fromange]

Ugly parents don't automatically have ugly children. Pretty parents don't automatically have pretty children. Two non-dwarf parents can have a dwarf child. Two dwarf parents can have a non-dwarf child. Two people born as paraplegics could have a non-paraplegic child. I could go on and on...

If you think aborting all the disabled people eliminates the possibility of disabled people, you are mistaken. There are all manner of disabilities that take time to show up in a person even when you are born with the predisposition for it. There would be no way to know for sure.

And if you're randomly aborting presumed disabled babies, there's as good a chance you're also eliminating some future immunity from something worse from the gene pool at the same time, because nature doesn't work cleanly like you think. It's not all perfect vs disabled... people are way more complex than that.

There's just no good ending to this line of thinking no matter how you slice it.

Again... I never said eliminate all disabled people... The question is really simple from the start. I still think the answer is it's not ethical to not abort for most disabilities. Again given that you know them. I know everything is not 100% genetic. I don't have much more to say without repeating myself. Thanks all for participating in the discussion.